Yea,, Back off on the #$*&@(@ Pilot wounds!

[Scca]

:lawnchair

I'll take a break and watch as well   

Can I have some Popcorn?

<passes Fulcrum popcorn>






<steals lawnchair>

[Zerstorer]

 

 

[The Fugitive]

And here is where reasonable minds can differ.

- oldman

I agreed oldman, the "dance" is more important the the kill. I have thousands and thousands of kills, but remember very few of them, but the fights..... ahhhh those I remember very well.

[xPoisonx]

Why ho someone and risk damage to your plane when you can beat them with other methods. Would rather rely on skill then luck.

[Skyyr]

Why ho someone and risk damage to your plane when you can beat them with other methods. Would rather rely on skill then luck.

While I agree with you in principle of relying on skill over luck, consistently outgunning your opponent is a skill, and one most people don't understand the tactical value of. Players don't like it because when you have an opponent who is a better shot and is willing to take front-quarter shots, there's no maneuver that's safe to perform.

It's harder to learn how to shoot well than it is to fly well.

[-ammo-]

While I agree with you in principle of relying on skill over luck, consistently outgunning your opponent is a skill, and one most people don't understand the tactical value of. Players don't like it because when you have an opponent who is a better shot and is willing to take front-quarter shots, there's no maneuver that's safe to perform.

It's harder to learn how to shoot well than it is to fly well.

Do you think people here undervalue accurate gunnery in AH?  I disagree with your assessment. It takes a helluva lot of practice and some people just come by this skill naturally.  I push my guys to practice gunnery drills constantly - like a broken record.

[Skyyr]

Do you think people here undervalue accurate gunnery in AH?

In general, yes. They tend to separate shooting and flying, without understanding they both rely on the other and are intimately continuous extensions of each other. The AH community tends to view these two aspects as separate topics.

The statements "Oh, he can fly well, he just couldn't kill his opponent fast enough" and "He's not a great pilot, but he's a good shot" come up repeatedly in AH. And that's fine, because the longer people hold this view, the longer they stunt their growth and remain easy targets.

I disagree with your assessment. It takes a helluva lot of practice and some people just come by this skill naturally.  I push my guys to practice gunnery drills constantly - like a broken record.

You disagree with which assessment? That the average pilot doesn't understand the tactical value of gunnery? I can guarantee you that as long as the term "HO" remains in use, and arguments along the lines of "I can fly well but not shoot well" come up, then the populace at large does not understand it.

Shooting skills don't really come to people naturally. What can come naturally is the ability to abstract and mentally picture objects in how they relate to each other. That's not a shooting skill, it's mental perception (as a random sidenote, the military tests and scores this ability as part of the ASVAB as well as on other tests). When a person or player realizes that this is what shooting is, then the problem is solved.

If you do see the value in it, that puts you in the minority.

[-ammo-]

In general, yes. They tend to separate shooting and flying, without understanding they both rely on the other and are intimately continuous extensions of each other. The AH community tends to view these two aspects as separate topics.

The statements "Oh, he can fly well, he just couldn't kill his opponent fast enough" and "He's not a great pilot, but he's a good shot" come up repeatedly in AH. And that's fine, because the longer people hold this view, the longer they stunt their growth and remain easy targets.

You disagree with which assessment? That the average pilot doesn't understand the tactical value of gunnery? I can guarantee you that as long as the term "HO" remains in use, and the argument of "I can fly well but not shoot well" come up, then the populace at large does not understand it.

Shooting skills don't really come to people naturally. What can come naturally is the ability to abstract and mentally picture objects in how they relate to each other. That's not a shooting skill, it's mental perception (as a random sidenote, the military tests and scores this ability as part of the ASVAB as well as on other tests). When a person or player realizes that this is what shooting is, then the problem is solved.

If you do see the value in it, that puts you in the minority.

Good gunnery inherently equals more success.  AH tracks it for the player to gauge.  If I am understanding you correctly, you think the AH population (pilots) do not value good gunnery.  I think you are wrong.  I am NOT saying they will do anything about it. 

Yes, it's true that there are people that have a natural ability to measure the correct amount of lead for a deflection shot.  I am one of them. I didn't have to practice - my father took me bird hunting when I was a little guy and I continually out-shot a lot of the adults in our group.  I could simply see the shot as it developed.  I am certain I am not the only person in the world that has this ability.  Robert S. Johnson was another and he states as much in his book Thunderbolt

Too many people I have interacted with in AH have stated they "wished they had better gunnery" which leads me to state the majority understands.  Again, I am not saying they will take the effort to help themselves, which is why I disagree with you.

[Skyyr]

Good gunnery inherently equals more success.  AH tracks it for the player to gauge.  If I am understanding you correctly, you think the AH population (pilots) do not value good gunnery.  I think you are wrong.  I am NOT saying they will do anything about it.  

Yes, it's true that there are people that have a natural ability to measure the correct amount of lead for a deflection shot.  I am one of them. I didn't have to practice - my father took me bird hunting when I was a little guy and I continually out-shot a lot of the adults in our group.  I could simply see the shot as it developed.  I am certain I am not the only person in the world that has this ability.  Robert S. Johnson was another and he states as much in his book Thunderbolt

Too many people I have interacted with in AH have stated they "wished they had better gunnery" which leads me to state the majority understands.  Again, I am not saying they will take the effort to help themselves, which is why I disagree with you.

I see your point, but I think you misunderstand mine. I think everyone wants to be a better shot. However, most people view shooting as a separate skill and they treat it as a separate skill, when in fact it's just as much a part of ACM as turning is. This is the flaw, they see it as a skill outside of ACM and not something that directly affects the tactics. They don't understand is that shooting skills directly allow for use of certain tactics that would otherwise not be effective without them. As simple as it sounds, this mindset alone is enough to prevent pilot growth.

[Zerstorer]

I agreed oldman, the "dance" is more important the the kill.

"Hell....dyin' don't matter, son.   Just make sure ya LOOK GOOD while doin' it!"

                                                         Quote attributed to Warmaster Debrody - Tour 157, Battle of Airfield 173

 

[-ammo-]

Gunnery and ACM are completely separate skill-sets, although they combine (along with SA) for a "whole tool-belt".  Maybe you are not articulating your point well. 

[Someguy63]

I see what Skyyr is trying to say but I believe he is wrong. Shooting is not under the ACM subject, they are completely different.

What's part of ACM is being able to gain a shot on your opponent, not just shooting, period.

[bustr]

Your highest percentage chance of hitting another fighter in our game is from the front quarter. Essentially shooting every time you and your con are starting to face each other. High, low, or oblique. It doesn't matter as long as it's in that front quarter cone. Why, because your con is shortening your distance while passing very close to you. You help yourself by turning off your tracers to remove any "tell" for him to know something is up and jink off your aim path.

If you don't have any ingrained issues with the game negative morality idea of the "HO" many of us struggle with. This makes you almost unbeatable because it negates ACM at the start. But, if it ever became the SOP all the time in our game, why bother to play the game if your choices are, get towered off the merge or spend the whole night chasing the tail end of a ghost. Imagine Aces High 3. HO everything you see and do nothing else for your $14.95 in eye blistering graphics.

I suppose I could come up with a front quarter HOing gunsight that is almost point and click. Messiah beta tested my acm gunsights Gen1-Gen8 until I stopped working on them. I stopped needing the hand holding guides I built into the reticles to make deflection shots after all the testing I did to make sure they worked. Kinda sounds like practice works don't it. Look at Messiah's kill strings after testing 8 generations for me. And he has his tracers off and sometimes doesn't use any reticle. I think semp is still using one of those from when I asked him to beta test for me.

Deflection shooting from 5-90 degrees off your line of travel is one of the hardest skills to master in our game. Even with the ww2 manuals I include in my Historic Pack. Many still struggle with the concepts and the practical application in the game. Front quarter cone shooting on the merge is very easy to master for a small amount of practice time compared to deflection shooting. Just about everyone holds a straight easy course for you to track. Most players simply don't aim short enough and end up shooting high and past their on coming con.

[wpeters]

We talk about how small a percentage of PW were in combat...  Are you taking US figures or taking both US and German and Soviet Figures... That makes a World of a difference.   Also the style of flying.

Do you roll your belly to the enemy when he is going to have a side profile shot on your canopy...

Is he coming in from a High six shot or a low six shot....   One thing you will notice if you shoot a vehicle with 30-06 is how much the bullets ricochet around in it before they exit. A bullet might have enough energy to penetrate the cockpit but now enough to hit thus ricocheting around in the cockpit.

Find the 38 is what I get the most PW in. But that is a glass bubble all the way around.  Yes the 190d I get pilot wounds in but rarely dead six shots.  Normally I am ruddering around when I get hit.  The best way to test is to get a Jeep and a 190 out on the runway shoot single rounds at differnent places on the cockpit and see what happens.  That is the only way to test and see if PW are OP before stating it for a fact...

If you think it is the .303 that are doing it try with a lvt using the .30 weapons. back off to the distances you want to try.  0m, 200m 400m 600m 800m and come back and tell us and bring film along to prove your point.,  That is the only way you will get HTC to change it is by bringing proof of facts to the table not opinions.

Because right now there is no factual proof. All there is opinionated proof.


I am curious. Please try!!

[craz07]

Skyyr is tough in the air, he's like a monkey that just latches on to you..    straight up