Boom n Zoom Problems (Typhoon)

[Kingpin]

I have noticed all the good BNZers stay almost on top of me whenever they come zoom up after a pass.

As of late I've been extending my opponents out to neutralize their altitude advantage, if their in a slower ride ill split S back into them once I have sufficient separation.

Do any of you guys have much success with this method?

Yes.

Naturally a slower plane will have a harder time BnZing a faster plane if the defender uses that speed to extend after a pass, as a slower plane will have difficulty staying on top of a faster plane.  That is why faster planes are often used for BnZ, because they are much better at it.

WRT to using the Split-S maneuver, it all depends on how close the con is when you are turning back into him and what your relative E-states are.  With a Split-S, you are giving up a good deal of altitude to gain speed and make a 180-degree turn.  If you are already faster, why gain excess speed in exchange for losing altitude against an already higher con?  The only time I think that would be best is if you know you will carry all of that excess speed into the first merge AND that allows you to zoom above him at the merge.  To be consistently effective, that likely requires less alt separation, fairly precise timing along with an unwary or overaggressive con.  

The advantage you have as the extending faster plane is YOU get to decide when to re-engage, so if you provide yourself ample turning space, the pure Split-S isn't really necessary, IMO.  Here again is where patience and timing come into play.

Generally speaking, I tend to prefer more E-conserving turns (like yo-yos) over the pure Split-S.  The beauty of the yo-yo is you can choose the angle (or adjust the angle during the turn) as needed, for example starting with a high yo-yo to turn tighter initially and dipping into a low yo-yo to gain max speed prior to the merge, all while maintaining the same starting alt.  You may need more initial separation to execute this, but as the faster plane, you control that separation and you decide when to engage.

<S>
Ryno

[-error]

Hi guys. It's really nice and useful discussion you have here.

I would like to ask how to deny attacker a shot in first phase? F.e. I'm sightly turning in gentle climb keeping an eye on the attacker. When he's close enough I start pulling more G to put and keep wingtip not on him but on his vertical line. Right?
When attacker is in immediate vicinity I start to pull in him and vertical in cork-screw/barrel roll thing. And this is the moment most of attackers make their snapshots on me. And most of them are successful and/or fatal. Damage ranges from loosing guns to loosing vital parts of the aircraft.

How do I deny attacker that snapshot opportunity while defending?

[Puma44]

Hi guys. It's really nice and useful discussion you have here.

I would like to ask how to deny attacker a shot in first phase? F.e. I'm sightly turning in gentle climb keeping an eye on the attacker. When he's close enough I start pulling more G to put and keep wingtip not on him but on his vertical line. Right?
When attacker is in immediate vicinity I start to pull in him and vertical in cork-screw/barrel roll thing. And this is the moment most of attackers make their snapshots on me. And most of them are successful and/or fatal. Damage ranges from loosing guns to loosing vital parts of the aircraft.

How do I deny attacker that snapshot opportunity while defending?

The simple answer is, maneuver out of plane using your lift vector.  The hard part is practicing it over and over and learning how to manage your energy at the same time. 

[FLS]

How do I deny attacker that snapshot opportunity while defending?

You have to get inside his turn before he gets the shot. It can be hard to judge because his turn radius may be decreasing while yours is increasing.

[Puma44]

Lift vector, lift vector, lift vector............

[jolly22]

Are lift Vectors different for every plane? How do you mess around with it? lol I've never heard of lift vector until now.

[Lusche]

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/flightdynamics/flightdynamics.htm

[FLS]

Are lift Vectors different for every plane? How do you mess around with it? lol I've never heard of lift vector until now.

Lift vector and flight path are 2 lines that define your plane of motion.  Think of lift vector as the direction of the lift force.  When you look straight up from the cockpit you are looking at the direction of the lift force. When you pull lead your shot's trajectory is in your plane of motion. Your target may evade by rolling and changing his lift vector to change his plane of motion. You respond by adjusting your lift vector and flight path to match his plane of motion again. Note that you can get a snap shot without matching POM but you need it to be similar for a tracking shot.

[jolly22]

Lift vector and flight path are 2 lines that define your plane of motion.  Think of lift vector as the direction of the lift force.  When you look straight up from the cockpit you are looking at the direction of the lift force. When you pull lead your shot's trajectory is in your plane of motion. Your target may evade by rolling and changing his lift vector to change his plane of motion. You respond by adjusting your lift vector and flight path to match his plane of motion again. Note that you can get a snap shot without matching POM but you need it to be similar for a tracking shot.

I see. Makes sense. So my "lift vector" you basically mean learning your planes limitations and stall points correct?

[FLS]

I see. Makes sense. So my "lift vector" you basically mean learning your planes limitations and stall points correct?

Lift vector just refers to the direction of lift. Maneuver out of plane refers to plane of motion. I thought you might benefit from an explanation.

The basic lesson here is when the bandit needs you to be in a certain spot to shoot you, don't be there. My advice is to be inside his turn so he can't shoot you. If you are out of his plane of maneuver you want to be in a position where if he rolls his lift vector towards you, it puts you inside his turn. This is how a bounce becomes a rolling scissors if the attacker doesn't zoom off, both aircraft stay inside each others turns until one flies out of position and gets shot.

[Puma44]

I see. Makes sense. So my "lift vector" you basically mean learning your planes limitations and stall points correct?

Think of the lift vector as a vertical line through the top of your head there mains vertical in relation to your aircraft.  When you are maneuvering it points in the direction you are pulling to or pushing away from, or rolling toward or we away from.

[-error]

The simple answer is, maneuver out of plane using your lift vector.  The hard part is practicing it over and over and learning how to manage your energy at the same time. 

But bogey is able to adjust his plane of maneuver by rolling hist craft at any time. Isn't he?

You have to get inside his turn before he gets the shot. It can be hard to judge because his turn radius may be decreasing while yours is increasing.

Is there any way to guesstimate attacker turn radius more or less reliably?

[FLS]

 As a general rule the climbing aircraft will reduce it's turn rate and radius and the descending aircraft will increase it. You should get an idea of the relative energy states after the first turn.

[Puma44]

But bogey is able to adjust his plane of maneuver by rolling hist craft at any time. Isn't he?

Yes, just like you are.  That's where knowledge of BFM fundamentals, energy management, and a whole lot of practice come in to play.  More often than not, two equally matched aircraft and pilots will duke it out and stay neutral until one makes a mistake.  Most often, he loses.

Is there any way to guesstimate attacker turn radius more or less reliably?

This is another time where BFM fundamentals can save your bacon.  Watching the opponent's relative turn rate and opening/closing closure rate can provide a lot of situational awareness (SA) and give you an idea of what your next move should be.   Air combat is just too fluid to use the same move against the other guy all the time.  Just when it's time to use that favorite move, he'll whip out something entirely unexpected and turn the tables. 

[1stpar3]

You seem to have some level of success against your opponents.  But, the discussion of lift vector and BFM/ACM fundamentals seems to be missing in your discussion.  For example, pointing your wing at the opponent isn't a valid fundamental term.  There are a number of scenarios that come to mind that would simply confuse someone new to the game and air combat by "pointing their wing" at the opponent.  Its important to know, apply, and teach the fundamentals when introducing it to new players, otherwise, confusion will exist.....followed by frustration.   

PUMa44,
This is the second post of yours I have seen today where you mention a lack of explanation of lift vector and other terms. Could you please EXPLAIN those items instead of just noting their absence? Please!!!! It is leading to great frustration I read your post thinking " okay, here comes the correct way to do this" only to find a dead end. I have a basic understanding but need to understand the details.