Author Topic: Cross Control Stall Tutorial  (Read 16980 times)

Offline Changeup

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #120 on: December 28, 2014, 10:22:50 PM »
Lotta CFI's flying AH.  I'm not sure which one I'd pick to teach me.  Maybe the FAA web site will provide some instructor options since it lists the CFI's by state...I don't want to be taught the wrong terminology.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #121 on: December 28, 2014, 10:30:45 PM »
A loop is a complete 360 degree turn in the vertical.  The diagram is of a vertical rolling scissors.  When it's not vertical, it's a flat or horizontal rolling scissors.  Below is a diagram of a flat scissors:


By your definition there's no loop in a split S. Now we can argue if you're half right or half wrong.  ;)

A flat scissors is not a horizontal rolling scissors. A flat scissors is a series of level turns nose to nose with the bandit. It's a radius fight, the flow is one circle.
The rolling scissors is a turn rate fight. It's two circle flow, it's basically a tail chase with vertical "turns",i.e. loops or partial loops, made up of barrel rolls.

A flat scissors can be horizontal or vertical. A rolling scissors in the vertical is a spiral climb because a vertical barrel roll is a spiral climb.  The first diagram may intend to show a rolling scissors but where it says "scissors develops" the red ribbon should be over the blue ribbon. The drawing is in error and that's why it looks like a flat scissors in the middle.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 10:58:55 PM by FLS »

Offline xPoisonx

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #122 on: December 28, 2014, 10:34:14 PM »
lol what this thread has turned into  :joystick:
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #123 on: December 28, 2014, 10:54:29 PM »
By your definition there's no loop in a split S. Now we can argue if you're half right or half wrong.  ;)

It's not my definition.  It's what exists as the real definition of the maneuver.  It's not about me being right or wrong.   A loop and a split S are two different maneuvers by definition.



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Offline Someguy63

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #124 on: December 28, 2014, 11:20:36 PM »
What maneuver do you think it showcases?

You tell me

Didn't you come here to tell us all in the first place?
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Offline FLS

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #125 on: December 28, 2014, 11:36:13 PM »
It's not my definition.  It's what exists as the real definition of the maneuver.  It's not about me being right or wrong.   A loop and a split S are two different maneuvers by definition.

Now you're talking about the definition of the Loop as a maneuver rather than loop being descriptive of a vertical turn.
My interest is the flying. I don't care to argue the semantics.

Offline Puma44

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #126 on: December 28, 2014, 11:45:42 PM »
Now you're talking about the definition of the Loop as a maneuver rather than loop being descriptive of a vertical turn.
My interest is the flying. I don't care to argue the semantics.
Neither do I.  But, when you describe a scissors as having a loop as part of  it, you are going to confuse someone new to the game and BFM/ACM by using inaccurate description. 



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Offline FLS

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #127 on: December 29, 2014, 12:15:35 AM »
Neither do I.  But, when you describe a scissors as having a loop as part of  it, you are going to confuse someone new to the game and BFM/ACM by using inaccurate description. 

They shouldn't be too confused unless they mix up a flat scissors with a rolling scissors.

Offline Traveler

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #128 on: December 29, 2014, 07:42:35 AM »
You tell me

Didn't you come here to tell us all in the first place?

I already did in several places, and offered instructional video to offer details.  You'll have to go back and look.

Here is an additional video offered by FLS in a different thread.  This video does a very good job of explaining why it is necessary to cross control to perform maneuvers :
Zeno's has posted a basic aerobatic training film showing the maneuver, ribbon diagram, and control positions.

http://youtu.be/4ciHwwRCeBw
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 07:49:25 AM by Traveler »
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Offline NatCigg

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #129 on: December 29, 2014, 02:36:22 PM »
If we could delete pages 4-9...that'd be great.  :bolt:

Offline Traveler

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #130 on: December 29, 2014, 05:28:12 PM »
If we could delete pages 4-9...that'd be great.  :bolt:

If you did that, Mar wouldn't get the answer to his question.
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Offline xPoisonx

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #131 on: December 29, 2014, 05:44:26 PM »
If you did that, Mar wouldn't get the answer to his question.
Mar's question was in no way related to my original post, which you managed to derail to the point of people fighting over a definition.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #132 on: December 29, 2014, 06:00:54 PM »
Mar's question was in no way related to my original post, which you managed to derail to the point of people fighting over a definition.

Interesting, you see people fighting and I see people discussing different maneuvers.  I derailed your tutorial on Cross Control Stall, because it wasn't a tutorial about that.  You have no idea what it is that is happening in that video you posted and yet you claim to be teaching others.  You derailed your own tutorial.   Several people, FLS, puma and myself at least posted accurate videos to show the use of cross control inputs.  Any Saturday night.

Mar question about Stall?  Your tutorial about Cross Control Stall, subject appeared to be related.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 06:10:13 PM by Traveler »
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Offline FLS

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #133 on: December 29, 2014, 06:12:39 PM »
Mar's question was in no way related to my original post, which you managed to derail to the point of people fighting over a definition.

Threads often go off topic while remaining informative and helpful. There is no fighting over definitions, there is polite disagreement, which may also be a useful lesson.  ;)

Offline Mar

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Re: Cross Control Stall Tutorial
« Reply #134 on: December 29, 2014, 06:26:39 PM »
No, I did get the answer. I just stepped out of the discussion for a while so I could look at it from the outside.

The problem was that since my youth I learned that "stall" meant losing control authority, usually due to falling below flying speed. I don't know if it was changed since then, or if everyone else was just using it wrong. Bottom line is as you said, according to the FAA the term stall doesn't have anything to do with airspeed.

But I have one more bone to pick.

There's no such thing as "not having enough speed to fly." You either have enough lift or you don't. Lift may ultimately come from airspeed, but airspeed alone does not determine whether you fly or not.

The way I see it, this post contradicts itself. Am I wrong?
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