Author Topic: Game on, Weakbait.  (Read 8757 times)

Offline xPoisonx

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 793
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #90 on: December 29, 2014, 05:36:52 PM »
E fighting is just lame sauce... No fun in those duels, it's the easiest style/ most boring style of fighting.
Plus flying the fastest planes the game and the 152, which literally poops E out of its Ahole makes this game pretty easy vs opponents when the only method of skill involved is timing the rope correctly.
If energy fighting is the easiest flight style, then why will an energy fighter vs a bnz or tnb fighter win every single time against the opponent given the same skill levels? If by easy, you mean more effective then I agree with you, however learning to manage your energy through low G maneuvers, maneuvers that make the opponent lose energy, and defensive flying is by far more complicated then dumping flaps and turning in circles, or blasting through a furball at 500 mph over and over again, extending out of icon range and climbing to 20k each time. Mind you, energy fighting can sometimes consist of both.

Also, the 152 has a top sea level speed of around 361mph on the deck, which is far worse then the common speed demons you see, and it holds one of the worst acceleration rates in the game (aka ability to building energy fast). It takes over 15 minutes to go from optimal climb speed to full speed WITH WEP at its prime altitude. It does, however, hold one of the top spots at keeping energy, similar to the 262 and p51 (which both have much higher top speeds at sea level). Learning to fight like this can win you a 5 or even 10 versus 1 in an MA environment, simply by taking advantage of the horde's hunger for an easy kill and using your strengths (I have a few films of me winning 5, 8 and 10 v 1s doing this.

So I ask you again, is energy fighting really the easiest/lamest way to fight? Or is it the most successful, however frustrating to those who do not wish to learn it.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 05:40:57 PM by xPoisonx »
Quote
you have a ego the size of Texas.
Quote from: hitech
Texas is big, but not THAT big.

HiTech

Offline Krupinski

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2083
      • Twitch
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #91 on: December 29, 2014, 06:04:34 PM »
If energy fighting is the easiest flight style, then why will an energy fighter vs a bnz or tnb fighter win every single time against the opponent given the same skill levels? If by easy, you mean more effective then I agree with you, however learning to manage your energy through low G maneuvers, maneuvers that make the opponent lose energy, and defensive flying is by far more complicated then dumping flaps and turning in circles, or blasting through a furball at 500 mph over and over again, extending out of icon range and climbing to 20k each time. Mind you, energy fighting can sometimes consist of both.

Also, the 152 has a top sea level speed of around 361mph on the deck, which is far worse then the common speed demons you see, and it holds one of the worst acceleration rates in the game (aka ability to building energy fast). It takes over 15 minutes to go from optimal climb speed to full speed WITH WEP at its prime altitude. It does, however, hold one of the top spots at keeping energy, similar to the 262 and p51 (which both have much higher top speeds at sea level). Learning to fight like this can win you a 5 or even 10 versus 1 in an MA environment, simply by taking advantage of the horde's hunger for an easy kill and using your strengths (I have a few films of me winning 5, 8 and 10 v 1s doing this.

So I ask you again, is energy fighting really the easiest/lamest way to fight? Or is it the most successful, however frustrating to those who do not wish to learn it.

 :rofl   :banana:

Offline Skyyr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1772
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #92 on: December 29, 2014, 06:20:50 PM »
E fighting is just lame sauce... No fun in those duels, it's the easiest style/ most boring style of fighting.
Plus flying the fastest planes the game and the 152, which literally poops E out of its Ahole makes this game pretty easy vs opponents when the only method of skill involved is timing the rope correctly.

What's the point of dueling if the whole time it's nothing more than a merge. That's boring. All it shows is that you can climb the highest on the merge.

Only partial half skill there.
The other half is being in the opposite position or in the disadvantage in a slower plane and being able to come out on top.

Keep flying the fastest planes in the game, all it proves is that you have to have your precious speed advantage in order to be successful in AH. I outgrew that phase many moons ago.

I'd love to have a rematch, when I can actually read the instruments and do care about my speed on the merge,  excuses or not, I was litterally too hammared to really take it seriously and I'm willing to bet my merge speed was attrocious compared to yours after the first 2 fights. I thought the first 2 fights were the best fights, but I certainly didn't match close to speeds on the merge in the rest of the fights, (my drunk fault, I foreal had a very small window of brain function left that morning lol). I didn't film it so I don't even know. But honestly I just don't even feel like fighting a boring E fight, it really just puts me to sleep.

P.S

Skyyr, I was praying you were gonna auger that 152 in the other night lol, was really my only hope. I was actually suprised you didn't. But my slow F4U1 couldn't do much other than attempt reversals and that other 190d just ruined all my hopes. Ohwell haha.

The comments made here are indicative of not having played at a high level in other flight sims. Turnfighting is more effective in AH than it is in most other flight sims, and even real life. However, even with the flight modeling, energy fighting will always trump turnfighting. This is ACM 101.

Secondly, claiming that energy fighting is easier directly contradicts Robert Shaw. Mr. Shaw has stated many times, both directly and indirectly, that energy fighting requires a much more experienced pilot due to the nuances of it. In fact, he actually discourages going vertical at the first merge because it's virtually impossible to gauge an opponent's energy levels at the first encounter (due to the difficulty of entering into an E fight). The difference in AH and games like it, is that we don't have our lives on the line and we run our engines at full throttle, and we have tags that show what planes our opponents are flying, so we know the parameters of our fights before they happen. Still, Robert Shaw wrote the book on turnfighting and he maintains that energy fighting is harder, if only due to the nature of entropy.

If you were to go out to any other flight sim, you'd find most all of the "good" pilots fly like we, The Damned, and many others (such as Poison) do. That is not to claim we're good, I'm simply stating that our flight style is quite common and accepted as an "experienced" flight style outside of AH. The idea that the majority of sim pilots fly in turning, stalling circles is a big fish, little pond mentality. Once you migrate past AH, you'll realize why we don't voluntarily opt for the turnfight. Our flight style translates to every other sim. Yours does not, and I can say that with 100% certainty, both as a simmer, a gamer, and a real pilot.

Regarding our duels, we dueled in the same plane, so it wouldn't have mattered if we were in fast planes or slow planes - our aircraft had the same performance. Therefore, your comments regarding "having to have" fast planes don't really apply at all. I beat you without a relatively fast plane (as well as your other cohorts), so that statement is also false.

We fly fast planes because we simply prefer to force energy fights. We could fly slower, more maneuverable planes, but we find no enjoyment in getting wrapped up into 5-minute long fights. That's it, nothing more. You enjoy the "thrill" of the fight, we enjoy the "thrill" of killing as many as we can each sortie. The difference is that one flight style translates into every other sim, the other does not. Other than that, it's just preference.

Lastly, our duels took place at 3AM my time, and I was punch drunk. The interesting thing about being drunk when flying, at least in sims, is that it reduces you to flying based on your ingrained instincts. Seeing as we both flew under the same conditions at the same time, that should further reinforce my point.

-=S=-


« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 07:11:11 PM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - ---

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 26-9

"Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Offline SkyRock

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7758
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #93 on: December 29, 2014, 07:27:38 PM »
It's really boring for the person who can't manage their E as well as their opponent, however, if you put two really good E fighters up against each other it almost always winds up in a stall fight and/or rolling scissors..giving some of the folks around here that white knuckle "knife" fight they are looking for...
of all my duels of late with E-fighters, all kill shots were made above the 2nd emmel...  the only one that went full stall was with poison in hogs...  and it was above second emmel also...  but to be honest, I haven't had a duel of late that hasn't been an E-milk duel... I guess the old balls out turn and burn fights are out.. if you want to duel these days, and be competetive, you must learn to E milk.... and unfortunately it is lame as all get out... so not fun, even when you win....  :aok  I will say that I see some good new sticks that fly very well... and that is always good... I don't see any Yucca's or blukittys or levi's though.. those who could fly into a hot mess and kill everything...  lots of great e managers these days though... and some great angles fighters...  :aok

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"

Offline DmonSlyr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6363
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #94 on: December 29, 2014, 07:29:39 PM »
The comments made here are indicative of not having played at a high level in other flight sims. Turnfighting is more effective in AH than it is in most other flight sims, and even real life. However, even with the flight modeling, energy fighting will always trump turnfighting. This is ACM 101.

Secondly, claiming that energy fighting is easier directly contradicts Robert Shaw. Mr. Shaw has stated many times, both directly and indirectly, that energy fighting requires a much more experienced pilot due to the nuances of it. In fact, he actually discourages going vertical at the first merge because it's virtually impossible to gauge an opponent's energy levels at the first encounter (due to the difficulty of entering into an E fight). The difference in AH and games like it, is that we don't have our lives on the line and we run our engines at full throttle, and we have tags that show what planes our opponents are flying, so we know the parameters of our fights before they happen. Still, Robert Shaw wrote the book on turnfighting and he maintains that energy fighting is harder, if only due to the nature of entropy.

If you were to go out to any other flight sim, you'd find most all of the "good" pilots fly like we, The Damned, and many others (such as Poison) do. That is not to claim we're good, I'm simply stating that our flight style is quite common and accepted as an "experienced" flight style outside of AH. The idea that the majority of sim pilots fly in turning, stalling circles is a big fish, little pond mentality. Once you migrate past AH, you'll realize why we don't voluntarily opt for the turnfight. Our flight style translates to every other sim. Yours does not, and I can say that with 100% certainty, both as a simmer, a gamer, and a real pilot.

Regarding our duels, we dueled in the same plane, so it wouldn't have mattered if we were in fast planes or slow planes - our aircraft had the same performance. Therefore, your comments regarding "having to have" fast planes don't really apply at all. I beat you without a relatively fast plane (as well as your other cohorts), so that statement is also false.

We fly fast planes because we simply prefer to force energy fights. We could fly slower, more maneuverable planes, but we find no enjoyment in getting wrapped up into 5-minute long fights. That's it, nothing more. You enjoy the "thrill" of the fight, we enjoy the "thrill" of killing as many as we can each sortie. The difference is that one flight style translates into every other sim, the other does not. Other than that, it's just preference.

Lastly, our duels took place at 3AM my time, and I was punch drunk. The interesting thing about being drunk when flying, at least in sims, is that it reduces you to flying based on your ingrained instincts. Seeing as we both flew under the same conditions at the same time, that should further reinforce my point.

-=S=-




You only have one style. Where as I have both styles and prefer to fly with harder and more challenging planes. Any time you lose your speed or do not win the merge you lose the fight. Your speed is all you have that's why you are terrible at definsive moves, when ever people get on your 6 you are dead. You have to fly fast planes in order to escape the fight. Flying the fastest and calling yourself great in a video game is moronic. You can only fly one style in those planes because these planes cannot turn well. You do not learn the slow fighting techniques, you will fail in a dire situation when you suddenly lose advantage.  


I have played for like 8 years longer than you on AH. I know how every single plane in this game flies.  I have played every style of fighting to its max, and I have achieved high marks. I remember when I first started and had to fly the fastest planes to survive... Rookies..

The Damned(est. 1988)
-=Army of Muppets=-
2014 & 2018 KoTH ToC Champion

Offline Skyyr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1772
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #95 on: December 29, 2014, 07:37:39 PM »
That's interesting conjecture, but you still didn't answer how I beat you 5-1 in the same planes as you if I could only fly, to quote you, "fast planes." When both planes are the same, neither plane is a "fast plane."

Also, if you mastered both styles, yet are beaten by someone who supposedly knows only one style, you probably haven't mastered either. ;)

-=S=-

« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 07:42:56 PM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - ---

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 26-9

"Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Offline DmonSlyr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6363
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #96 on: December 29, 2014, 07:50:47 PM »
Because unfortunately in the first fight you should have died after I drilled you the first time, and somehow the plane fly's perfectly with half a tail ... in real life you would have been Hoesed. The second fight with the nik you couldn't out climb me and I got you. After that, you clearly had more speed than me on the merge... Congratulations.. Like i said, one match like that.. Was a joke. You proved nothing other than you could win with more speed. In the MA you are nothing without your speed advantage..
The Damned(est. 1988)
-=Army of Muppets=-
2014 & 2018 KoTH ToC Champion

Offline Skyyr

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1772
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #97 on: December 29, 2014, 07:57:15 PM »
Because unfortunately in the first fight you should have died after I drilled you the first time, and somehow the plane fly's perfectly with half a tail ... in real life you would have been Hoesed. The second fight with the nik you couldn't out climb me and I got you. After that, you clearly had more speed than me on the merge... Congratulations.. Like i said, one match like that.. Was a joke. You proved nothing other than you could win with more speed. In the MA you are nothing without your speed advantage..

I was referring to your losses 1v1 in the DA. So you're now mocking that I resort to E tactics flying a TA below 10,000ft against an F4U and a N1K? A plane that turns substantially worse than either aircraft. I suggest yet again that you read Robert Shaw's book.

The DA was your chance. We flew the same planes at the same alt at the same E states. Better luck next time.

-=S=-

« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 08:01:46 PM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - ---

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 26-9

"Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Offline DmonSlyr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6363
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #98 on: December 29, 2014, 08:17:05 PM »
My chance... Please.. That was the warm up session..

And I was referring to the first 190D fight and the nik fight after during the duel.

And u clearly used E tactics in the 152 fight. Good thing the 152 can "hold E" so well.. After 8 passes and a 190D teammate distraction you finnally pulled off a shot,

You fly the easiest planes in the MA and think you are some kind of greatness. Please...again lame, I remember when I first stared playing .. Just admit that you are weak in the MA when you can't out run opponents. You are weak when you can't run because you don't know defensive ACM.

Don't even get me started on mocking.

Our drunkness was not equal.. Say what you will but that fight was a joke.

Keep flying newb planes in the MA because that's the only way you can pretend to be a decent AH pilot.

I'll be flying the Temp the all next  tour to prove a point. You are all weaksouce in the MA without our go fast, run out of trouble, I can't fight when someone is going faster than me, girly crap.

I'll show you just how easy it is to fly E mode "stay alive" mode in AH. Its easy when you fly the best planes of the war. Yall are a joke...




« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 09:29:09 PM by DmonSlyr »
The Damned(est. 1988)
-=Army of Muppets=-
2014 & 2018 KoTH ToC Champion

Offline xPoisonx

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 793
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #99 on: December 29, 2014, 09:55:35 PM »
Shame I didn't see you tonight scotch.

 :uhoh
Quote
you have a ego the size of Texas.
Quote from: hitech
Texas is big, but not THAT big.

HiTech

Offline Zerstorer

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1192
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #100 on: December 29, 2014, 10:01:44 PM »


If you were to go out to any other flight sim, you'd find most all of the "good" pilots fly like we, The Damned, and many others (such as Poison) do. That is not to claim we're good, I'm simply stating that our flight style is quite common and accepted as an "experienced" flight style outside of AH. The idea that the majority of sim pilots fly in turning, stalling circles is a big fish, little pond mentality. Once you migrate past AH, you'll realize why we don't voluntarily opt for the turnfight. Our flight style translates to every other sim. Yours does not, and I can say that with 100% certainty, both as a simmer, a gamer, and a real pilot.

We fly fast planes because we simply prefer to force energy fights. We could fly slower, more maneuverable planes, but we find no enjoyment in getting wrapped up into 5-minute long fights. That's it, nothing more. You enjoy the "thrill" of the fight, we enjoy the "thrill" of killing as many as we can each sortie. The difference is that one flight style translates into every other sim, the other does not. Other than that, it's just preference.

....



Highlights are mine...and I can confirm this.  

I am currently busy unlearning several BAD habits I picked up over the past few years and relearning things which worked well for me prior to AH when I flew the original IL2.  BTW...This is not said to demean AH or the pilots here....those tactics do indeed work here and they can work in other Sims as well...just not to the same degree.  Part of this is due to the differences in flight models and game mechanics....part due to the vast majority of players using historically correct E tactics.

Between that and relearning those things that are either not modeled here (e.g. engine management) or simply modeled for the sake of gameplay (e.g. takeoffs, landings) its been a fun challenge.  
The Once and Former Fulcrum

In my experience, nothing is ever what it seems to be, but everything is exactly what it is.

Offline Coalcat1

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 913
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #101 on: December 29, 2014, 10:04:30 PM »
Oh now you guys are backing down?!  Whats next, your gonna tell me you keep your underwear on when you hit the showers?

This is the Ultimate Contest! Who wouldn't want to engage in an act of such pure Competition and Sportsmanship!!!
(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)





Is this not the glory all men dream of!? :old:

Glzz, where did raynos find you?

Offline Kruel

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 722
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #102 on: December 29, 2014, 10:12:25 PM »
I have both styles and prefer to fly with harder and more challenging planes.

This is what I mean...if he kills you when you chose to fly your slow planes and doesn't play your game (ie., get in a turn fight with you, therefore giving up his advantage) is that his fault?  Its a win/win for you no matter what..

If you kill him flying your crappy plane..you are amazing because you won and beat someone in a better plane. YOU WIN
If he kills you, he sucks because you flew a harder plane (not his choice but yours). YOU WIN (because he chose easy planes but still killed you?).

You can't really complain about getting shot down in the MA...its an arena and you chose your weapon , you live or die with the results..in the end it is still your choice.

The DA is a different animal because you get the same weapons...you saw how that went. I'm amazed that you guys make so many excuses...we are going to need a Pre-Duel checklist in order to proceed:

Duel Excuses Checklist:
1. Have you consumed any alcoholic beverages within the last 24 hours? If YES (Reschedule) if NO (Continue).
2. Would you consider yourself to be "rusty" or not 100% ready for the duel? If YES  (Reschedule) if NO (Continue).
3. Is your joystick/PC/Internet connection FULLY operational? If YES: DUELS ON! If NO (Reschedule).

 :rofl


Offline xPoisonx

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 793
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #103 on: December 29, 2014, 10:23:49 PM »
Duel Excuses Checklist:
1. Have you consumed any alcoholic beverages within the last 24 hours? If YES (Reschedule) if NO (Continue).
2. Would you consider yourself to be "rusty" or not 100% ready for the duel? If YES  (Reschedule) if NO (Continue).
3. Is your joystick/PC/Internet connection FULLY operational? If YES: DUELS ON! If NO (Reschedule).

 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Quote
you have a ego the size of Texas.
Quote from: hitech
Texas is big, but not THAT big.

HiTech

Offline SkyRock

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7758
Re: Game on, Weakbait.
« Reply #104 on: December 29, 2014, 10:34:28 PM »
I'm amazed that you guys make so many excuses...
:rolleyes:

Triton28 - "...his stats suggest he has a healthy combination of suck and sissy!"