By request. energy/Speed retention P-51 vs Brewster

[Lusche]

Once again there was a debate on 200 about the 'overmodeled' Brewster, and how it's one of the most dangerous fighters in the game.
This was backed up with anecdotes, for example how "A Brewster kept up with my Pony at 400mph for 3/4 of a sector"

Time to revisit this topic and do another test:

Setup: P-51D vs Brewster, both planes at 50% fuel (fuel burn 0). Both planes dive to the deck (approx. 750ft) and level out. Measurement begins at both planes v=448mph





And finally, the distance between both fighters:




After 3/4 of a sector (as per anecdote) the Pony was over 7k yards ahead of the Brewster, the latter one being unable to keep up for such a distance as depicted in the aforementioned anecdote.

[Vinkman]

I think the bottom chart is the story for most complaints. It would take 20 seconds to extend out of gun range. 20 sec with a bandit on your six o'clock seems like an eternity.

Thanks for the Data Snailman. <S>

*for the record, I'm not the one that said it chanced me for 3/4 of a sector.

[Lusche]

I think the bottom chart is the story for most complaints. It would take 20 seconds to extend out of gun range. 20 sec with a bandit on your six o'clock seems like an eternity.

It's plenty of time to die before you get out of gun range, that's for sure.

However, I have the feeling many people have the unrealistic expectation the Brewster should decelerate like hitting a brick wall. and the Pony zoomin away like a F-15 on afterburner.
Everything less than that is "overmodeled", even though the Brewster actually decelerates very rapidly from high speeds (12% speed loss during the first 10 seconds compared to the P-51D's 4%)

Oh, and for my own record: Of course it still may be the B-239 is actually over- or mismodeled. I don't have enough knowledge to say. I just know that theres an amazing amount of exaggerations on the AH performance of this 'magical' fighter out there.

Thanks for the Data Snailman. <S>

My pleasure.
Not my wife's, who raised an eyebrow as I once more was doing that nerd stuff during dinner time 

[Scherf]

Yeah, but you were using your shadez account when you did the test!

Haxxorz!

 

[darkzking]

its needs to be fixed now 

[Slade]

There are some ACM techniques that can leave a turny bird out of gun range during that eternity or equivalent (dead).  Some work on even the best pilots though not all equally.  ACM methods per plane differ (different opportunities that is in diff planes).

If you see me on-line just PM me and I'd show you a few of my favs.

Slade

[Karnak]

I have found that players in general have exaggerated expectations when it comes to diving away.

I recall reading the performance comparison between the P-47 and a captured A6M wherein the P-47 was found to be able to dive away from the A6M as an escape.  Players imagine that to mean the P-47 would be thousands of yards away, but in the test it gained something in the range of 200 to 400 yards of separation on the A6M by the pullout.  The P-47, or other fast fighter, could escape that way, but it was not, as you say, acting like a F-15 on afterburners.  We are, in the end, talking about two roughly contemporary prop driven fighters.

[Lusche]

I tested a few more planes in the same manner. For ease of comparison I changed the presentation format:



As you can see, the Brewster is in the same class as similar EW planes like the A6M and F4F, but is actually performing even worse. It's a mystery to me why the AH Brewster has such an extremely exaggerated reputation in this respect. It's not anyhwere near other typical LW planes.


It's very similar to the stuff that was happening when the Spitfire 16 or the Sherman VC were introduced to AH.

[FLOOB]

You should've been here for the n1k2 whines.

[Oldman731]

You should've been here for the n1k2 whines.

True, true.  Helicopter plane.

- oldman

[MK-84]

I believe you posted the brewster's K/d ratio at some point. Mind tossing that up here as well?

[Lusche]

I believe you posted the brewster's K/d ratio at some point. Mind tossing that up here as well?

The true A2A k/d is 0.75 in this year so far, which is one of the lowest of all fighters.

It's also the reason for this little chart I posted some time ago:

[Aspen]

Whats interesting is that for me, something made it seem like the Brewster held speed better than expected when fighting it.  Not sure what causes that impression, but I had the same experience others did when it came out.  More than once I would be in a furball and ignore the Brewster that just went by because with the E he had compared to mine, he would lose too much turning onto my 6 to be an issue.  Then I look back and there he is in gun range and not falling back as quickly as expected.

There was something about it that gave the impression that it held speed better than expected.  Not saying it does, just saying that I experienced the same impression that many others brought up.  I don't see it anymore now that its been in game a while. I assume the only thing thats changed are my expectations and perception.  

I don't doubt the numbers above are accurate in any way, but I do think the myth came about from players honest perception.  I really don't know why that is, but I experienced it as well.  

[bozon]

The true A2A k/d is 0.75 in this year so far, which is one of the lowest of all fighters.

That says a lot more of how it is used than its performance. Brewsters (the ones I see anyway) are mostly used in base defense at 0 alt. No plane will get any impressive statistics from such usage that places it nearly the entire time in defensive flying. The Zekes are used a lot from carriers on offence which improves their chances of survival and getting kills.

The problem with diving away from Brewster is that unlike the zeke, it can reach higher speeds. As long as my speed is close to 300 mph and I have a bit of air under me, I do not fear high zekes - I can easily push them out of their envelope and all they'll achieve by diving on me will be to blow away their E. Brewsters on the other hand will hang in longer in the dive and since they will often start faster then me, the time it takes to accelerate and pull away will give them the opportunity for some shots. Also, it means that if I am not high enough AGL to hit my speed limit, my speed excess at the bottom will not be very high and pulling away will take longer. This makes one feel like the Brew holds E much better than the zeke for example.

[bustr]

Is there anyone who knows a very successful Brewster pilot in our game who you can Q&A in this post? Might be interesting to hear from the Brewster side what those pilots perceive. Aspen has a very good point in his observation about E and ignoring the Brewster to his detriment. I used to get caught by that also. Though it could simply be we are getting a reality check on how slow we are really going versus how the Brewster started it's path toward us.

I flew one once to see if it was a secret pocket rocket. The closest plane we have to what it does very well is the Yak3's instant 3k rocket up once it hits 300TA. The Brewster needed a shallow dive, and then it went up like a tiny rocket for almost 3k. At the top if you didn't bleed off too much speed, you could still save yourself with it's turn ability or use another quick dive to gain just enough distance for maneuvering. All three of my kills happened by popping up under the poor distracted uber ride that was ignoring me.

When watching furballs from above, I see the more successful Brewsters working the vertical while saving the horizontal for after sucking in an uber ride.