Author Topic: Flaps Management  (Read 3602 times)

Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2015, 02:41:29 PM »
Thank you Randy1 for this imensely helpful post! Most of us forget or miss the fact that some planes have the fowler (spelling?) flaps which  have an impact on the wings cord!

On most planes, from my experience, anything beyond the first two settings are useful for trying to slow your plane down or to help create lift at slower speeds but does not in fact dicrease your turn radious or increase your turn rate. I remember a conversation sometime back where corshair pilots were testing this out with their flap settings and decided thT anything over two notches is detramental for trying to get better turn performance at a fixed speed but is more usefull for its braking power, snapping the nose back under the horizon when  near an inverted and slow attitude, and holding onto a little bit of lift when in a stall fight (but not to be kept out the whole time).
Does this make sense to you guys?

The anything more than 2 notches of flaps out in F4U model planes only applies to the following F4U-1A, F4U-1D, F4U-1C, F4U-4.....  the F4U-1 is capable and able to maintain its turn radius & turn rate all the way to having full flaps extended, it does not lose any turn performance if you go past using 2 notches of flaps extended, to where as the other F4U series/models will decrease in turn performance after 2 notches of flaps ( using more than 2 notches ), the F4U-1 model stays constant from 1st notch flaps deployed thru full flaps deployed

Badboy has even posted the EM Charts/Diagrams showing this several times in years past.......


hope this helps

TC
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Offline Owlblink

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2015, 02:50:11 PM »
The anything more than 2 notches of flaps out in F4U model planes only applies to the following F4U-1A, F4U-1D, F4U-1C, F4U-4.....  the F4U-1 is capable and able to maintain its turn radius & turn rate all the way to having full flaps extended, it does not lose any turn performance if you go past using 2 notches of flaps extended, to where as the other F4U series/models will decrease in turn performance after 2 notches of flaps ( using more than 2 notches ), the F4U-1 model stays constant from 1st notch flaps deployed thru full flaps deployed

Badboy has even posted the EM Charts/Diagrams showing this several times in years past.......


hope this helps

TC

Yes, thank you for that correction, I forgot all about the F4U-1 flap performance.
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Offline BBP

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2015, 07:21:42 PM »
Well I watched a film today of a pilot flying a P-51. He had the Flaps working. But what I noticed was when he was cruising he kept his speed right at 249. That let him deploy the flaps whenever he needed them. And that is my misunderstanding. How can you keep the plane fast - say 300 and use your Flaps? 
YOU CAN'T!!!
So is it standard procedure to cruise at Flap speed?    On some planes I guess you can but others you can't. Many planes won't deploy Flaps till 190. Who is going to fly around at that speed just so they can use the Flaps?  This can be confusing! :headscratch:

















Offline FLS

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2015, 07:52:30 PM »
You don't need flaps when you're going 300 MPH because you can already turn hard enough to black out.

Offline Puma44

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2015, 11:19:51 PM »
So is it standard procedure to cruise at Flap speed?   
No it's not. For a fighter pilot, speed is life.  It's easier to burn off speed (i.e. energy) than it is to regain it.  The ability to start flaps out at a relatively high speed in the Mustang allows the pilot to generate turn rate to gain the advantage on the opponent. 



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Offline Badboy

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2015, 01:50:38 PM »
Some players make good use of flaps, others don't. For the most part, we learn how to employ flaps from experience, but in some cases, even after significant experience it is still all too easy to get it wrong. One reason for this is the difficulty getting the quality experience in the first place and also the difficulty getting good information. 

Before I give you my take on this I need to make some general comments on the use of flaps in air combat. It is fairly commonly known that using flaps changes the camber of the wing and that this changes both the lift and drag. Most players are aware that the lift increases, and the drag also increases, but what is important is the ratio between the increase in lift and drag and that ratio is known as the aerodynamic efficiency. Depending on the type of flaps and how much they are deflected, the influence of the flaps on the profile and induced drag in proportion to the lift can result in either an increase or decrease in the resulting aerodynamic efficiency of the wing. What that means is that the use of flaps can be good or bad in terms of the price you have to pay for the increase in lift.

What does that mean in terms of air combat? During an engagement, the differences in lift and drag are apparent by the influence on the way our aircraft can turn. Employing flaps generally results in higher instantaneous turn rates, and a smaller turn radius. However, in the case of a sustained turn, while the turn radius is always reduced, the sustained turn rate may either increase or decrease.

In cases where a particular flap deflection results in a reduction in turn radius, and an increase in the sustained turn rate, it is very important to identify that, because it can be highly desirable to fly in that configuration. However, it is more common for a reduction in turn radius to be accompanied by a reduction in the sustained turn rate. In those cases it is essential to know when you need to minimise your turn radius, or when it is more important to maximise your sustained turn rate.

The answer is this… Generally, (I need to speak in general terms because there are exceptions and I will come to that later) it is better to minimise your turn radius in a one circle fight (nose to nose turns) and to maximise your turn rate in a two circle fight (nose to tail). This is a very important point, it is so important that many players lose fights because they fail to understand the subtleties of it.

In order to make best use of the differences in radius and rate caused by the use of flaps, it is necessary to know how your turn radius and turn rate are influenced by the use of flaps in a sustained turn. That information is conveyed most readily by means of a diagram showing the turn circle for a fixed time. That way the turn radii can be seen relative to each other, and because the circles are drawn for a fixed time, the differences in sustained turn rates will be apparent because some lines will extend farther around the circle than others. You can see this by inspecting the following diagram.



Here you can see that the F4U1D benefits from a tighter turn radius and an increased sustained turn rate when flaps are employed. You will notice that the best sustained turn rate occurs when the flaps are deflected by two notches. That's the best place to be in nose to tail fight, because the way to win that kind of fight is simply to win the turn rate war. You need to gain angles on your opponent until you move around the circle onto his tail. In order to do that you need to know how to maximise your sustained turn rate. The diagram above shows you exactly how to do that.

You can also see that if you deflect the flaps on the F4U1D beyond two notches, you pay for it with a reducing sustained turn rate. Notice also that once you get to four notches, the fifth and final notch gives you a slightly tighter radius with an insignificantly small reduction in rate. So for this particular aircraft, once you enter a turn fight, you should use only two notches of flaps as long as you are turning nose to tail to optimise your rate, and if the fight goes nose to nose, such as in a scissors, where you need to reduce speed and minimise your turn radius, use full flaps.

Lastly, if the situation changes don't be afraid to work the flaps. If the fight is nose to nose and you employ full flaps as appropriate in that case, but the situation changes to one where you find your self chasing the bandits tail, don't be afraid to reduce your flap deflection in order to improve your turn rate, and thus out turn your opponent.

Having said that, few things in life are cut and dry, and even that wisdom isn't always safe. It all depends on the aircraft. For example, take a look at the diagram for the A6M2 shown below:



You will see that this case is very different from the previous one. Instead of the flaps producing an increase in the sustained turn rate as it did in with the F4U1D, you now notice that as the flaps are deflected the turn radius tightens up as expected, but now the sustained turn rate drops also. You can see that while there is a significant drop in sustained turn rate for the first and second notch of flap deflection, the second, third and fourth positions all have very similar turn rates.

The conclusion you can draw from this is that for this aircraft, if you want to maximise your turn rate, don't use your flaps at all. There is no sweet spot as there was with the F4U1D. Also, if you feel the need to deflect the flaps by two notches, you might as well go all the way, because you will get a tighter turn radius and your sustained turn rate won't diminish any farther than it already has. However, in this case the turn radii are small and the reduction in radius at full flaps is significant and that introduces another complication.

Most of us learn fairly quickly that the right thing to do in a nose to tail turn would be to optimise turn rate, however because the circles are so small in this example, there is a danger that a player who drops full flaps may be able to pull his nose inside his opponent's turn for a shot across the circle. If the shot succeeds, the energy sacrificed will be worthwhile, but if you don't make the shot, at worst it may very quickly prove fatal, or at best  the energy lost in the attempt will haunt you throughout the remainder of the fight. That's why some players will deliberately offer the prospect of a shot in the hope that their opponent will go full flaps and give up all their energy for a first shot opportunity.

On the other hand, getting slow quickly and using full flaps is a strategy that can be an effective way to get quick kills if you always take the fight one circle, in a scissors type engagement, in which case full flaps is almost always the right thing to do. It can be so effective against weaker players that it is easy to get locked into that way of fighting. The catch is that a good player can force the fight back to a nose to tail turn, and if they are good at optimising aircraft performance in that that situation, and if they have a proper understanding of the relationship between angles and energy, the fight can become very difficult for the player stuck at full flaps with a one circle fixation. The longer such a player allows themselves to remain in that situation, the more they continue to lose angles and energy until they become entirely defensive.

The bottom line is that good players develop a feel for when and how to use flaps so that they can maximise aircraft performance for the situation they are in. They simply know where the sweet spot is for their particular ride. It takes hundreds of hours of top quality fighting to develop the skills needed to excel in this, so my advice to anyone who hasn't figured it out yet is this:

Forget about trying to survive, speed is life, but you won't learn as much that way. Get stuck in at every opportunity, seek out tough fights because quality experience produces accelerated learning and adrenaline packed fun! That is the best way to make rapid progress, because as other players appreciate your willingness to engage and have fun, the better ones will be equally willing to help, its a win win situation.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 01:54:40 PM by Badboy »
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Offline bustr

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2015, 03:43:27 PM »
With our 190's Hitech is being kind. Translate the manuals and you find the 190's had three settings available from the cockpit, each with a push button for the setting. Flight, landing, takeoff. To assist this, there was a hole in the top of the wing the pilot could see through from the cockpit, where a graduated semicircular scale of 0-60 in 10 degree increments showed through as the flaps actuated.

So how many flap down positions do our 190 have in this game? Wonder if the 152 holds true to this. Should be easy to look at a cockpit photo and count the buttons.

But hey, our I16 has both flaperons and split flaps which no I16 Type was ever mounted with both. Since the flaperon was replaced with the split flap to stop the death of pilots. And the first generation of split flaps actuated with an air bottle, killed pilots due to the sudden and dramatic extension of "air brakes". This was fixed by using a hand crank which took forever to lower and raise the split flaps. But, stopped killing pilots. Our version(s) of the I16 should only have the hand cranked split flaps. That's why in game when you pop the flaps, very often you commit suicide. I Wish listed this with in depth visuals to help Hitech and Waffle fix it "some day"........

So did someone post that the Fw 190's in our game have "3" flap down positions??
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Offline BBP

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2015, 06:31:14 PM »
FLS why would I want to turn fast and hard to pass out?  I would really rather turn a little to slow my plane enough to use my flaps as they were intended.

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Offline Vudu15

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2015, 07:01:19 PM »
BBP I have some videos that cover some aspects of working with flaps and rudder.....it doesnt cover everything and it is in a turny bird but it will show you some views.

Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDCJj706Pqk&index=39&list=PL54E5CE4C59347B00

Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6USkuXdbc4&list=PL54E5CE4C59347B00&index=40

Part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6USkuXdbc4&list=PL54E5CE4C59347B00&index=40

Those links will also take you to a playlist that has other videos that may have handy info. :D
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Offline FLS

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2015, 07:58:31 PM »
FLS why would I want to turn fast and hard to pass out?  I would really rather turn a little to slow my plane enough to use my flaps as they were intended.

KimoSabe

I never said you did. I said there is no turn advantage with flaps at 300 MPH.

The graphs Badboy made show flaps effect on best sustained turn performance. Sustained turn performance is under 190 MPH.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 10:08:21 PM by FLS »

Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2015, 09:07:36 PM »
Some players make good use of flaps, others don't. For the most part, we learn how to employ flaps from experience, but in some cases, even after significant experience it is still all too easy to get it wrong. One reason for this is the difficulty getting the quality experience in the first place and also the difficulty getting good information.  

Before I give you my take on this I need to make some general comments on the use of flaps in air combat. It is fairly commonly known that using flaps changes the camber of the wing and that this changes both the lift and drag. Most players are aware that the lift increases, and the drag also increases, but what is important is the ratio between the increase in lift and drag and that ratio is known as the aerodynamic efficiency. Depending on the type of flaps and how much they are deflected, the influence of the flaps on the profile and induced drag in proportion to the lift can result in either an increase or decrease in the resulting aerodynamic efficiency of the wing. What that means is that the use of flaps can be good or bad in terms of the price you have to pay for the increase in lift.

What does that mean in terms of air combat? During an engagement, the differences in lift and drag are apparent by the influence on the way our aircraft can turn. Employing flaps generally results in higher instantaneous turn rates, and a smaller turn radius. However, in the case of a sustained turn, while the turn radius is always reduced, the sustained turn rate may either increase or decrease.

In cases where a particular flap deflection results in a reduction in turn radius, and an increase in the sustained turn rate, it is very important to identify that, because it can be highly desirable to fly in that configuration. However, it is more common for a reduction in turn radius to be accompanied by a reduction in the sustained turn rate. In those cases it is essential to know when you need to minimise your turn radius, or when it is more important to maximise your sustained turn rate.

The answer is this… Generally, (I need to speak in general terms because there are exceptions and I will come to that later) it is better to minimise your turn radius in a one circle fight (nose to nose turns) and to maximise your turn rate in a two circle fight (nose to tail). This is a very important point, it is so important that many players lose fights because they fail to understand the subtleties of it.

In order to make best use of the differences in radius and rate caused by the use of flaps, it is necessary to know how your turn radius and turn rate are influenced by the use of flaps in a sustained turn. That information is conveyed most readily by means of a diagram showing the turn circle for a fixed time. That way the turn radii can be seen relative to each other, and because the circles are drawn for a fixed time, the differences in sustained turn rates will be apparent because some lines will extend farther around the circle than others. You can see this by inspecting the following diagram.



Quote
Here you can see that the F4U1D benefits from a tighter turn radius and an increased sustained turn rate when flaps are employed. You will notice that the best sustained turn rate occurs when the flaps are deflected by two notches. That's the best place to be in nose to tail fight, because the way to win that kind of fight is simply to win the turn rate war. You need to gain angles on your opponent until you move around the circle onto his tail. In order to do that you need to know how to maximise your sustained turn rate. The diagram above shows you exactly how to do that.

You can also see that if you deflect the flaps on the F4U1D beyond two notches, you pay for it with a reducing sustained turn rate. Notice also that once you get to four notches, the fifth and final notch gives you a slightly tighter radius with an insignificantly small reduction in rate. So for this particular aircraft, once you enter a turn fight, you should use only two notches of flaps as long as you are turning nose to tail to optimise your rate, and if the fight goes nose to nose, such as in a scissors, where you need to reduce speed and minimise your turn radius, use full flaps.

Lastly, if the situation changes don't be afraid to work the flaps. If the fight is nose to nose and you employ full flaps as appropriate in that case, but the situation changes to one where you find your self chasing the bandits tail, don't be afraid to reduce your flap deflection in order to improve your turn rate, and thus out turn your opponent.

Having said that, few things in life are cut and dry, and even that wisdom isn't always safe. It all depends on the aircraft. For example, take a look at the diagram for the A6M2 shown below:



Quote
You will see that this case is very different from the previous one. Instead of the flaps producing an increase in the sustained turn rate as it did in with the F4U1D, you now notice that as the flaps are deflected the turn radius tightens up as expected, but now the sustained turn rate drops also. You can see that while there is a significant drop in sustained turn rate for the first and second notch of flap deflection, the second, third and fourth positions all have very similar turn rates.

The conclusion you can draw from this is that for this aircraft, if you want to maximise your turn rate, don't use your flaps at all. There is no sweet spot as there was with the F4U1D. Also, if you feel the need to deflect the flaps by two notches, you might as well go all the way, because you will get a tighter turn radius and your sustained turn rate won't diminish any farther than it already has. However, in this case the turn radii are small and the reduction in radius at full flaps is significant and that introduces another complication.

Most of us learn fairly quickly that the right thing to do in a nose to tail turn would be to optimise turn rate, however because the circles are so small in this example, there is a danger that a player who drops full flaps may be able to pull his nose inside his opponent's turn for a shot across the circle. If the shot succeeds, the energy sacrificed will be worthwhile, but if you don't make the shot, at worst it may very quickly prove fatal, or at best  the energy lost in the attempt will haunt you throughout the remainder of the fight. That's why some players will deliberately offer the prospect of a shot in the hope that their opponent will go full flaps and give up all their energy for a first shot opportunity.

On the other hand, getting slow quickly and using full flaps is a strategy that can be an effective way to get quick kills if you always take the fight one circle, in a scissors type engagement, in which case full flaps is almost always the right thing to do. It can be so effective against weaker players that it is easy to get locked into that way of fighting. The catch is that a good player can force the fight back to a nose to tail turn, and if they are good at optimising aircraft performance in that that situation, and if they have a proper understanding of the relationship between angles and energy, the fight can become very difficult for the player stuck at full flaps with a one circle fixation. The longer such a player allows themselves to remain in that situation, the more they continue to lose angles and energy until they become entirely defensive.

The bottom line is that good players develop a feel for when and how to use flaps so that they can maximise aircraft performance for the situation they are in. They simply know where the sweet spot is for their particular ride. It takes hundreds of hours of top quality fighting to develop the skills needed to excel in this, so my advice to anyone who hasn't figured it out yet is this:

Forget about trying to survive, speed is life, but you won't learn as much that way. Get stuck in at every opportunity, seek out tough fights because quality experience produces accelerated learning and adrenaline packed fun! That is the best way to make rapid progress, because as other players appreciate your willingness to engage and have fun, the better ones will be equally willing to help, its a win win situation.

Hope that helps...

Badboy





Thank You, Badboy, for your in depth analysis on Flap Management ( when to use, when not to use and the upsides and downfalls Flap Management all en tells )

enjoyed seeing another good thought provoking post from you, again, thanks

Cheers , hope you are doing well!

TC ( Johnny )
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 09:10:40 PM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Badboy

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2015, 12:19:10 PM »
FLS why would I want to turn fast and hard to pass out?  I would really rather turn a little to slow my plane enough to use my flaps as they were intended.

You don't actually want to pass out, but if you begin a turn at any speed above corner velocity with the intention of maximizing your turn rate, you should pull all the way to the edge of your physiological limit, in Aces High that means that you pull until most of the screen is black and you are maintaining a visual on the bandit by looking through a small window of visibility at the center of your screen. To get the most angles for the least cost in energy while above corner velocity, you should maintain full throttle, fly on the edge of the black out and reduce speed by turning so as to gain altitude, and a spiral climb can work well in that situation. Turn hard and high! Once your speed drops below corner you can maintain your optimal turn rate by transitioning to a nose low turn, giving back the altitude you just gained in an effort to keep your speed as close to corner for as long as possible and thus benefit from the very high turn rates that can be achieved at speeds near corner velocity. If you judge it wrong and your speed goes just above corner you will start to black out again, but the secret is not to ease off the G, but to just raise the nose slightly to control your speed and maintain the turn rate... The point is that riding the edge of the black out is an important skill.   

If you have a considerable amount of excess speed, the best option is not to turn hard at all and fly the early stage of the fight as an energy fight, and then transition back to an angles fight after you have used your energy to gain a positional advantage. If you don't have time for that and your excess speed is more of an embarrassment than a benefit you can turn hard, turn high and also reduce throttle at the same time. With practice you can learn to control your energy with G, Altitude and the throttle to get to the elbow with great efficiency.

Hope that helps

Badboy
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Offline Badboy

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2015, 12:22:22 PM »
Cheers , hope you are doing well!

Yep, doing great thanks. Did you drop out for a while there?

Haven't seen you on the boards for while.

You still have the same phone number?

Regards

Badboy
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Offline Owlblink

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2015, 12:24:38 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)




Thank You, Badboy, for your in depth analysis on Flap Management ( when to use, when not to use and the upsides and downfalls Flap Management all en tells )

enjoyed seeing another good thought provoking post from you, again, thanks

Cheers , hope you are doing well!

TC ( Johnny )


I second this!

As usual your post is very educational and clear.

Would you mind giving your advice on testing out different aircrafts to get a general idea for determining their flap performance for all those following this thread? I've got the general idea of just taking a flight at sea level in the TA and entering a sustained and level turn for x time at different flap settings, but I was wondering if you've got any input to help facilitate the process or to make the effects of the flaps more obvious.

Thankyou again Badboy!
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Offline FLS

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Re: Flaps Management
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2015, 12:40:34 PM »
A quick way to compare slow speed turn performance is to compare the lowest speed you can maintain a given load like 3g in a level turn. You can compare flap settings or different aircraft this way.