Flaps Management

[Gman]

Great posts BadBoy <S>.

[BBP]

HOLY CRAP BATMAN.......egh aghhhhhhhh RatMan!
I'm practicing everything y'all have posted and its really good stuff. I am having one problem. I'm in the F4U-1A. I get hot on the tail and the Dude cuts a hard right. In the F4U-1A..........NO PROBLEM..............sept.   I stay with the dude on two extention of flaps. I've managed to close it down to 200. I start to pull the trigger but the Flaps have me lifting the guns off the dude. I push down on my nose and oooops, go to far. Let up some and I'm floating above the dude again. Darn,he escapes with a few bullet holes.

How do you hold the bead steady on the guy and fight the rising flaps too?

[Big Rat]

BBP,

Well one of two ways you deal with that issue of nose bounce with flaps deployed. Learn to fly with manual trim in a dogfight or learn to compensate for the combat trim while taking the shot.  I personally just learned to compensate, but others have better luck with manual trim.  Find what works best for you.

 
BigRat

[FLS]

How do you hold the bead steady on the guy and fight the rising flaps too?

As BigRat said, the problem isn't the flaps, it's combat trim adjusting to your slower speed without taking the flaps into consideration. Without the flaps, combat trim would set the elevator for level flight at your current speed with the stick centered. Because you have flaps down combat trim causes you to pitch up and you have to push the stick forward for level flight.

A quick fix is to map combat trim to a button and turn it off before you use flaps. This is easy to do and easy to forget to do.

You can also turn off combat trim and briefly use auto level to set your trim to cruise speed before the merge. This will give you some nose heavy trim for the fight which is generally a good idea. In addition to fixing your problem it also lets you avoid any deadband at stick center when you're making fine adjustments to your aim. You just pull more or less instead of push/pull across the dead spot.

[TequilaChaser]

As BigRat said, the problem isn't the flaps, it's combat trim adjusting to your slower speed without taking the flaps into consideration. Without the flaps, combat trim would set the elevator for level flight at your current speed with the stick centered. Because you have flaps down combat trim causes you to pitch up and you have to push the stick forward for level flight.

A quick fix is to map combat trim to a button and turn it off before you use flaps. This is easy to do and easy to forget to do.

You can also turn off combat trim and briefly use auto level to set your trim to cruise speed before the merge. This will give you some nose heavy trim for the fight which is generally a good idea. In addition to fixing your problem it also lets you avoid any deadband at stick center when you're making fine adjustments to your aim. You just pull more or less instead of push/pull across the dead spot.

Yep, what FLS and BigRat have posted above.....

I have flown he F4U-1 since it first showed up in Aces High, and prefer it over all other F4U models......with that said, I approach the combat trim vs flaps fighting each other in the following way:

upon launching my F4U-1 and taking of / grabbing altitude, I will normally use auto climb as well as use combat trim turned on, as I am inbound to my target or patrol area. Now as I get closer to where I am going to be patrolling or dogfighting, etc... I will level out and build my level flight cruise speed up to between 310 mph IAS upwards to 330 mph IAS ( IAS = Indicated Air Speed = the WHITE  MPH needle ), now once I have reached this desired 310 to 330 IAS speed while having CT ( combat Trim ) enabled and in level flight with no stick inputs ( be sure to have no aileron input, no elevator input, no rudder input), disengage CT (Combat Trim )!!!  Also, be sure to not be using WEP either, while setting your desired speed / trim.... WEP being on will just throw your trim off a little and make it less beneficial once you start to dogfight

The reason I set my controls / trim up in this manner is for several reasons, FLS mentioned it slightly in his above post when he said:

You can also turn off combat trim and briefly use auto level to set your trim to cruise speed before the merge. This will give you some nose heavy trim for the fight which is generally a good idea. In addition to fixing your problem it also lets you avoid any deadband at stick center when you're making fine adjustments to your aim.

Another tip: if you are flying towards some enemy planes and you do not have quiet enough speed built up to get your controls trimmed out and set properly, you can engage combat trim , make sure all flaps are up/in and hit WEP and put your F4U into a slight shallow nose dive ( nose just slightly below the horizon so you do not give up a lot of altitude ), carefully watching the speed increase to 310 IAS and keeping your stick inputs to a minimal, just maintain wings level..... Once you hit around 310 IAS disengage WEP first, then disengage CT.................continue in your shallow  dive for a couple more seconds before leveling out and climbing back up to your desired altitude......


As FLS posted, it is easier to shoot at your bogey, when you have a gentle pull on your joystick which makes it much easier to steady your piper/bore-sight and hold it on your target, verses trying to fight the Combat Trim / Flaps struggle of pushing and pulling your joystick trying to hold a good bead on your target!


Another benefit of using manual trim, when flying the F4U series is that when I am climbing up or chasing someone up in the vertical and they proceed to drop flaps.... I can drop notches of flaps with out any impunity of having to worry about CT ( combat trim ) fighting against my stick inputs or extended flaps, which could possibly cause me to stall or spin even....

Also, while dogfighting and when one might get slow as they near the top of their loop or reversal and they may need to drop a notch or 2 of flaps to help them get over the top, if they have CT turned on, it will take them a few extra seconds to regain that speed once they are heading back down, to where as I, myself, am able to regain / pick up speed a good bit faster being already trimmed out at around 310/330 IAS.... once my nose is pointed back below the horizon I am immediately raising as many notches of flaps as I deem necessary according to the situation...


Hope this helps....

TC

[BBP]

Thanks Guys! Its much appreciated!
KimoSabe

[TequilaChaser]

I am having one problem. I'm in the F4U-1A. I get hot on the tail and the Dude cuts a hard right. In the F4U-1A..........NO PROBLEM..............sept.   I stay with the dude on two extention of flaps. I've managed to close it down to 200. I start to pull the trigger but the Flaps have me lifting the guns off the dude. I push down on my nose and oooops, go to far. Let up some and I'm floating above the dude again. Darn,he escapes with a few bullet holes.

How do you hold the bead steady on the guy and fight the rising flaps too?

Hello BBP,

one thing I just noticed regarding your above post, where you typed that while you are in your F4U-1A  and are hot on the tail of your opponent, when suddenly they execute or perform a "cut, hard right"

here is a tip that might help you out in future situations when turning to the right in all of the F4U series planes......

Usually when you are flying along in your Big Blue F4U and are turning toward the left, one has no problems at all even while turning and using WOT or WOT w/WEP, even

BUT: when trying to do the same thing but you find yourself turning to the right, you might find at times that the torque from the F4U , especially when using WEP, you will find yourself fighting the turn, for the torque is wanting to roll you back toward the left!

To counter this situation, as well as help you turn toward the right better and even gain ground ( gain angles while turning right ), I recommend that you back off on the throttle a couple to few % , instead of tying to turn to the right using 100% throttle, try turning with like anywhere in between 92% to 97% throttle......

You will find that you will actually be able to gain closure rate and angles on your opponent instead of giving up angles and distance to them when trying to use 100% throttle


Hope This Helps

TC

[Randy1]

I tried going back to CT but it was a no go.  That being said though If I try to manual trim efficiently on a plane choice I don't fly often it doesn't work so well.  You have to develop an eye for manual trim.  I have a button to switch to CT for those situations.  Just have to remember to switch back to CT after an auto flight selection.

There is a stiffness with CT that I just don't like.  Kind of like having to yank the plane out of a given path.

[BBP]

TequilaChaser

Thanks Man,

In fact I was having that trouble as well. It was only intermittent so I didn't think to much of it because it seemed to go away. Now I know what was going on. I've had that issue on other planes a lot. I tend to fly flat out open throttle. Always trying to catch the guy!
In fact I've had the right wing point to the up position while attempting a right hand turn. The left wing will be on its way up and its like it got slapped down and the right wings comes up taking it place. This of course sends me in a different direction.
Thanks again for the info...........thanks to all. I got one more question I'm going to post but its a new topic.

KimoSabe

[Bobcat81]

I recently found something that I find interesting throwing my plane around in the DA. Lets say I find myself under 200mph being b&zed by someone with flaps disengaged. They come in from my 6, or 4, or 8oclock range hauling azz. Instead of hitting flaps for optimal control right away, I utilize a quick snap roll to throw off their shot, whilst kicking 2 knotches then following them up. This gives me a quick shot at their tail and makes em sweat a bit. Just another trick in the bag so I'm not doing the same thing every time a fast one swoops on me.

[Kingpin]

In fact I've had the right wing point to the up position while attempting a right hand turn. The left wing will be on its way up and its like it got slapped down and the right wings comes up taking it place. This of course sends me in a different direction.

It sounds to me like this issue you are describing above is not torque-related, but is actually the result of a stall.  One wing is stalling in the turn, causing the plane to "flip" (snap roll) the other way.  Essentially you are trying to turn too hard to follow your opponent, stalling a wing and losing the positional advantage you wanted.

In this case, instead of trying to match his turn, perhaps a high yo-yo or low yo-yo would be better, depending on your relative energy state (are you faster or slower than the opponent you are trying turn with?).  

<S>
Ryno

[BBP]

You know I think that's really what it is. I have fast hands and quick reflexes being a tennis pro. I'm always to fast with the stick.

Thanks Again!

Kimo

[BBP]

Would anyone have comments on FLAP useage for a P-51?

[FLS]

The advice already posted pertains to the P-51 also. The P-51 has a high speed combat flap setting of 10 degrees but again, if you're already going fast enough to pull 6 g and black out you don't need flaps.

The P-51's corner speed is around 260 MPH, depending on weight and altitude.  Corner speed gives you the best turn rate and smallest radius. Corner speed is defined as the slowest speed you can pull max g. In our case that's blackout at 6g. If you want to pull 6g at less than 260 mph you'll need flaps. Since you create a lot of drag with that much lift you slow down very quickly even without flaps. Turn rate you can't maintain is referred to as instantaneous turn rate, you may only have it for an instant unless descending, as opposed to sustained turn rate where thrust and drag are balanced.

[Puma44]

TequilaChaser

Thanks Man,

In fact I was having that trouble as well. It was only intermittent so I didn't think to much of it because it seemed to go away. Now I know what was going on. I've had that issue on other planes a lot. I tend to fly flat out open throttle. Always trying to catch the guy!
In fact I've had the right wing point to the up position while attempting a right hand turn. The left wing will be on its way up and its like it got slapped down and the right wings comes up taking it place. This of course sends me in a different direction.
Thanks again for the info...........thanks to all. I got one more question I'm going to post but its a new topic.

KimoSabe

From the description, you may be experiencing an accelerated stall.  If so, the Mustang will snap to follow the rudder input.  For example, in the right turn if your rudder is coordinated (ball centered) or too much right rudder, it will snap to the right.  If not enough rudder is applied, i.e. too much left rudder, it will snap to the left.