Author Topic: ATR 72 A Death Trap??  (Read 14105 times)

Offline earl1937

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #75 on: February 11, 2015, 02:59:26 PM »
That was the Chicago one right? I think all DC10 crashes were attributed to a bad door design or a foul up by mechanics.
:airplane: According to some people posting on this thread, all accidents are caused by humans, not design flaws!!! I bet he never heard of the square window vs round window accidents back in the 50's!!!!
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #76 on: February 11, 2015, 03:53:40 PM »
:airplane: According to some people posting on this thread, all accidents are caused by humans, not design flaws!!! I bet he never heard of the square window vs round window accidents back in the 50's!!!!

Who designed those windows?

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2015, 04:03:03 PM »
If you're referring to the DH Comet accidents it wasn't a design flaw, but a production problem. Punched rivets instead of drilled rivets causing fatigue cracking near the windows if I recall correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9r7bgk_mP0
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #78 on: February 11, 2015, 04:28:16 PM »
:airplane: According to some people posting on this thread, all accidents are caused by humans, not design flaws!!!

People make mistakes and design things wrong all the time. That's not the issue. I just take an affront to blowhards who call people idiots and accuse them of wrongdoing without a single shred of proof.
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Offline mbailey

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2015, 04:46:24 PM »
Actually the main cause were design flaws with the square windows were all replaced with oval windows due to metal fatigue at the corners if the square windows.....

(Taken from a report regarding the breakup of the comets

He said the painstaking analysis of thousands of fragments of the Comet involved in the Elba crash had revealed that the damage was caused by a fault in the plane itself.

In what Sir Lionel called "one of the most remarkable pieces of scientific detective work ever done", a team led by Sir Arnold Hall, director of the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough, subjected models, full-size aircraft and replicas to the most elaborate and searching tests ever carried out on an airliner.

One fragment collected from the scene of the crash showed that a crack had developed due to metal fatigue near the radio direction finding aerial window, situated in the front of the cabin roof.

The investigators found that a small weakness such as this would quickly deteriorate under pressure, and would rapidly lead to a sudden and general break-up of the fuselage.

In tests on another Comet aircraft, Sir Lionel added, the investigators had found that up to 70% of the aircraft's ultimate stress under pressure was concentrated on the corners of the aircraft's windows.




« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 04:53:03 PM by mbailey »
Mbailey
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #80 on: February 11, 2015, 04:51:25 PM »
Ok, I could be wrong. Long time since I last read/watched anything about the Comet.
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Offline mbailey

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #81 on: February 11, 2015, 08:40:54 PM »
Ok, I could be wrong.

Nope you were not wrong at all, while the design of the windows had much to do with the crashes.....the rivets did as well. The square window frames were only riveted in and not glued and riveted  (as the original specs called for) The rivets were punched instead of drilled which (at times) could result in an imperfect hole. This imperfect hole could be a weak point, exacerbating an already poor design.

I did some post-grad studies at Lehigh University (a school well known for its metallurgical dept) One of my Profs did quite a bit of work with the NTSB investigating aircraft accidents involving metal fatigue, design and materials. Really smart cookie to say the least. He was actually on the team that found the flaws in the casting of and method of manufacture of the titanium fan blade failure in the United 232 crash in Souix City. That said, when we started talking about metal failure one of the examples he used was the structural failures of the DH Comet. I have a feeling you would have loved that class.



« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 08:50:10 PM by mbailey »
Mbailey
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2015, 07:40:44 AM »
I most probably would have, yes.  :)
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2015, 01:57:23 PM »
:airplane: According to some people posting on this thread, all accidents are caused by humans, not design flaws!!! I bet he never heard of the square window vs round window accidents back in the 50's!!!!

This is from memory but it wasnt actually the doors, tho the door design did blow. What happened is when they opened due to a faulty design they caused damage to some critical control mechanisms of the airplane itself. The airplane could survive a door blowing out but it couldnt survive what damage the door damage did.
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Offline asterix

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2015, 02:37:15 PM »
:airplane: It gets a little frustrating when you see accidents like the one that just happened in Twain! People dying unnecessarily due to a poorly designed aircraft! On paper, this ATR72 is a regional carriers dream ship, but when you look at the accident record and still no changes in the basic problem of the design, a horizontal stab, elevator, vertical stab and rudder which is just to small, in my view for the aircraft!...

...This the current production model, which is like the one which crashed! Now, can anyone see any change in the size of the tail surfaces between the two aircraft? I can't see any change!
Another great engineering feat by some idiot somewhere that lives by numbers alone and not what the thing will actually do. They had "deep stall" prioblems in test flights from day one, and have always had cross wind trouble when landing this thing. My question is, how many more lives are going to be wasted before they shut this thing down from carry passengers.
Sorry, didn't mean to get on my soap box, but those people should not have died!! Just because he lost the left engine right after takeoff should not have resulted in a deadly crash. Of course I realize that pilots all have different skill levels during emergencies but this was a high time capt with plenty of hours in this aircraft.
I just wonder at what IAS the aircraft was above VMC when the left engine flamed out? If he was 5 knots above VMC, should have never happened!!
Shouldn`t (ex)pilots have an open minded personality and not get ideas stuck in their heads like that. Having an opinion is one thing, but calling names based on that... May I see the source of information about "deep stall" problems in test flights from day one?
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Offline Charge

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2015, 05:27:17 AM »
"The government has more skeletons in the closet than any company. A whistle blower is treated like a traitor. Even if he helped you by betraying his employer, you cannot trust him - because he has betrayed his employer. Right or wrong, that how the world works."

I'm not sure what "world" you are talking about but the point is that if your work is to ensure that the maintenance is done correctly i.e. your work directly contribute to mechanical safety of a airplane and if you know this work is not done correctly and the negligence in doing so would cause the death of hundreds of people, who is to blame? You think the company would not use any chance it has to put the blame on you if it can. How could you sleep if you knew that the covered negligence you were part of was responsible of that? And the cover-up was done to achieve what? To ensure there was no interruptions to delivering profit to share holders? The people who do the direct work to ensure the safety of millions of passengers per year cannot be expected to be loyal to an employer who has no obvious moral engagement in passenger safety. In that sense the airline industry is different as even a quite small negligence can have disastrous consequences.

A mindset that considers such person to foremost be a "traitor" and not a morally conscious citizen has something seriously twittle'd up.

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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2015, 08:31:31 AM »
Right or wrong. Someone who betrays his employer will be blacklisted in that industry. Even government jobs. There may be exceptions, but that's the general rule. It's not just the big jobs either. You can be blacklisted as a waitress. If you get your name on a blacklist you're pretty much screwed and need to find a completely different line of work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklist_%28employment%29
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2015, 10:45:29 PM »
Quote
It's not just the big jobs either. You can be blacklisted as a waitress. If you get your name on a blacklist you're pretty much screwed and need to find a completely different line of work.


<------Trying to imagine how in Hell a waitress would get "blacklisted".

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Offline Serenity

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Re: ATR 72 A Death Trap??
« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2015, 12:45:11 AM »

<------Trying to imagine how in Hell a waitress would get "blacklisted".



I got blacklisted as a cashier at a grocery store. True story. Could not find ANY work at ALL in ANY retail store after that... other non-related industries were happy to hire me (And pay me more) but after a few choice words working at HEB, no other store would touch me.