Jug Instructions

[Randy1]

You are really getting too deep into meadow muffins.  Data is just that, data.  What you want to know is simpler than reams of data.  Do you want to get in a turn fight with a yak or a8 with a P-47?  NO!  If coE or near coE then merge but be very aware if you loose the merge, blow through it without a turn and extend.  If the E deficit is too great, extend away with no merge and reset with a better E.

  Can you kill an a8 or yak with a P-47?  Absolutely but it must be a fight on your terms not theirs.

The P47 is damn deadly but it is a plane that requires patience.

[glzsqd]

  The Jug handly out turns the 190A8.

Perhaps your cutting throttle and dropping flaps to much.

[FLS]

Do you want to get in a turn fight with a yak or a8 with a P-47?  NO!

And you know that by testing comparative turn rates. Unless of course you test and find out that you can. 

[WW1965]

I sometimes think I'm the only one that likes the D-25

Well, if I can't get a Mary or Nancy, I'll grab a D25 every time.. It doesn't turn as well as the Razorback, & doesn't have the performance of the D40, but it's a helluva plane..

Set a hard deck @ 10k & low speed of 200.. at least that's what I try to do, but mostly my greed takes over & I wind up with 3-4 smelling blood on my 6..

But when I fly with discipline, it's a great plane..

Downside = not a good jabo ride..

Wrngway <S>

[Randy1]

And you know that by testing comparative turn rates. Unless of course you test and find out that you can. 

Actually, no.  There are endless threads on what out turns what with a plethora of charts.  Very few turns in a fight are flat and at the perfect turning speed.

The turn is used to gain an advantage but not always a gun solution.

[WW1965]

For example, the P-47, more than most planes is significantly affected by its fuel load, just because it carries so much of it..

Thanx for saying this..

Most people I see squeaking about how bad the jug is cram every damned thang on it they can [Fuel/Ammo/Ords] & then wonder why it doesn't do too well when that enemy dives on ya..

Muzzy My #1 piece of advise is to think carefully about your loadout.. get alt & speed ASAP, & then size up the situation.. I can't tell ya how many times I've been tempted to drop ords & go help "That Guy" with 4 cons on him.. ( I know the feeling ).. but what am I doing?? if the mission is to take out the <thingy> over at base <BlahBlah>, then that's what I should focus on.. but if I'm there to fight & have fun & stuff, then Hellz-To-the-Yeah I'm otw Bruh!!

If I wanna fight it, then I don't weigh it down with 1,000's of pounds of crap & tons of fuel.. I keep it light & nimble, & I use the max cruise to get to the area, & then set my hard deck & low speed.. (I personally use 10k & 200IAS.. if i'm below either of those, I'm in trouble..)..

it'll surprises me, it's very quick in it's maneuvers if it's fast & the snapshot with the 8's is fatal..

but you have to stay fast.. 200IAS is the absolute minimum..

My E & SA have to be on point at these times.. if I'm off (or that last beer got me..), then "I'm Down"..

My squaddies used to squeak at me for flyin it.. I'd just tell them,"cuz it's fun".. now they fly it with me.. 

Wrngway <S>

[bozon]

Actually, no.  There are endless threads on what out turns what with a plethora of charts.  Very few turns in a fight are flat and at the perfect turning speed.

The turn is used to gain an advantage but not always a gun solution.

Randy is correct, the charts lie.

[WW1965]

Gee thanx I spent time reading instead of flying..

no I gotta go to bed ..

thanx ya bunch of schmuks....

Wrngway <S>

[FLS]

Actually, no.  There are endless threads on what out turns what with a plethora of charts.  Very few turns in a fight are flat and at the perfect turning speed.

Comparative turn rate doesn't change in a vertical fight. I already pointed out that you won't be making level turns at your exact best sustained turn rate. You don't know which aircraft turns better unless someone tests it.

Randy is correct, the charts lie.

Which chart is a lie? Please link one.

If the charts lie shouldn't you do your own testing?

[bozon]

Which chart is a lie? Please link one.

All of them. The testing charts represent exactly the thing that was tested at those specific conditions - which rarely apply. It is like a frozen analog clock that always show the wrong time except for two very brief moments, twice a day.

Charts tell you the obvious - that a jug should not go into a turning contest with a Brewster for example. This applies at most speeds, alts and loadouts so can be taken as a rule. All but the most extreme cases are very fuzzy in how they apply to the real MA combat in the game. What actually happens is that the planes are at different speeds, alts and weights from what has been tested. On top of that they are not even at the same speeds relative to each other, hardly ever fly in sustained turns, and almost never fly around the same circle (usually have displaced centers).

[FLS]

That doesn't fit any definition of a lie. You're just saying the tested weights, which are listed in the hanger, should be noted.

You are both supporting my suggestion to do your own comparative testing. 

[bozon]

That doesn't fit any definition of a lie. You're just saying the tested weights, which are listed in the hanger, should be noted.

You are both supporting my suggestion to do your own comparative testing. 

They lie in the same sense as a broken clock that tells the time. The listed weights will not help you very much. Speed and climb curves do have a bit of use, but turning tests are useless. Testing is fun and provide for an interesting discussion on the bbs, but their application is almost nil.

[Randy1]

That doesn't fit any definition of a lie. You're just saying the tested weights, which are listed in the hanger, should be noted.

You are both supporting my suggestion to do your own comparative testing. 

Were not saying you are wrong FLS.  Just saying knowing  to engage or not engage is the very first decision point and the most critical.   If my plane turns slightly better than the red plane by data I sure do not want to engage just with that information.  I have lost many of a fight thinking my plane could out turn a red plane.  On the other hand I have won turn fights against turny planes because I used better throttle control.

[Skyyr]

They lie in the same sense as a broken clock that tells the time. The listed weights will not help you very much. Speed and climb curves do have a bit of use, but turning tests are useless. Testing is fun and provide for an interesting discussion on the bbs, but their application is almost nil.

Charts have usefulness depending on how you try to use them.

If you're trying to use them as an absolutely indicator of performance, then you're right, they're only correct at specific points and configurations.

However, they're immensely useful, and almost always accurate, regarding relative aircraft performance. Sure, there are exceptions, but the majority of the time a plane that excels over another aircraft at X altitude, as well as X+Y altitude, will typically perform better at every altitude in-between.

The thing is, ACM is about relative aircraft performance, not absolute. Absolute performance data is only good for telling you what your aircraft will do in a very specific situation; relative performance data will tell you how your aircraft will perform against an opponent, and this is incredibly useful. Additionally, most (not all) planes suffer similar performance drops for weight and altitude, so again, charts are useful as long as we have at least two data points for each aircraft.

[FLS]

Were not saying you are wrong FLS.  Just saying knowing  to engage or not engage is the very first decision point and the most critical.   If my plane turns slightly better than the red plane by data I sure do not want to engage just with that information.  I have lost many of a fight thinking my plane could out turn a red plane.  On the other hand I have won turn fights against turny planes because I used better throttle control.

You were both criticizing comparative turn rates based on the well known limitations of absolute turn rates.
You will learn faster when you try to understand what is correct in my posts instead of looking for something that's wrong. Comparative turn rates are what you base your decisions on. The fact that you've already internalized much of that data neither invalidates it nor reduces the importance of learning it before you can make good decisions.