Flat Turn Fight

[JunkyII]

So I've been watching my recent films and it seems like this is the area where I lose all my advantage in fights.

I can E merge, angle merge and get set into rolling/vertical scissors and do well but when it goes flat, I lose advantage and it normally ends with me initiating a rolling/vertical scissors where I enter with a severe disadvantage and have to force a overshoot.

My questions. Should instead of flat turning with someone, should I just extend away at the first sight and reset the fight?

and 2. How do I get better a flat turn fights? I try to hold on my best sustain turn but seems like they are doing something that is getting them inside my turn. I find retract my flaps up and gaining speed then setting the flat turn off axis seems to work for me but it isn't a cure all for sure.

Generally I'm just looking for better information on flat turn fights(even though they are boring as hell) it is the area that consistently gets me beat.

[Zimme83]

What are you flying and what are the con flying?

[Muzzy]

Come to think of it, this is where I have some trouble too, that is unless I've got a huge turn advantage over a con. I'll try to post film.

[JunkyII]

Same planes

[FLS]

You should only be flat turning if you're on the deck and too slow to go vertical. Whoever has flaps out in the same aircraft as in a duel has a turn radius advantage and should go nose to nose for a snap shot. Nose to tail needs a turn rate advantage and if you get too slow in a sustained turn you give the rate advantage to the bandit.

[Muzzy]

You should only be flat turning if you're on the deck and too slow to go vertical. Whoever has flaps out in the same aircraft as in a duel has a turn radius advantage and should go nose to nose for a snap shot. Nose to tail needs a turn rate advantage and if you get too slow in a sustained turn you give the rate advantage to the bandit.

Help me out here: nose to nose= turning opposite from the con, nose to tail=turning in the same direction?

Actually last night I got beat by a zeke while flying an I-16. What should I have done in that situation? Nose to nose or nose to tail?

[FLS]

It's impossible to say what you should have done in a fight I didn't see. 

Nose to nose you meet head on if equal, the idea is to get their first. Nose to tail is a stalemate if equal so you need to build speed or altitude so you can go vertical.

[JunkyII]

So in a flat turn fight just dump all flaps? Too easy, but I feel like I'm still going to lose. Is there any thing else that will get me to make a turn tighter other then just dumping flaps?

[FLS]

No don't just dump all flaps. If the bandit has no flaps out you may benefit from one or 2 notches or you may need full flaps. It's likely you'll just slow down too much and the bandit will reset the fight to a tail chase with a rate advantage since you're slower now.

There is no general rule that always works. There are just general principles that are always true. The two ways to turn tighter instead of faster are decreasing your turn radius or going vertical.

[Muzzy]

Well given their turning capabilities, co-alt and on the deck, which turn should I have used?

[FLS]

You should have avoided getting there since the Zeke has all the advantages but since you are there you'll use both and hope the other guy screws up.

[DmonSlyr]

Instead of going in a flat circle. Go up and down while you are doing the flat turn. This will give you a tiny notch if alt, then when you go down you'll have a tiny bit E. Often times, if I'm above 800ft I'll attempt to cut in and go into a dive to attempt a loop over the top.

 Think of it as a wobbly circle going up and down, on one end you are high, the other side you are low. At the high side, you can roll into a nose a nose dive by cutting inside the circle and then using that E to do a loop or Emil over the top.

[Muzzy]

You should have avoided getting there since the Zeke has all the advantages but since you are there you'll use both and hope the other guy screws up.

Well, that explains that then. Thanks!

[Mar]

Junky, different planes require different flap settings for the best sustained turn, but there can be more to it in a fight.

Here's an example that happened to me recently: both f4u1as, just came out of a maneuver that I can't remember, but it ended up with him about my 4 or 5 o'clock low, about the same or maybe he had a little more smash, I tried to go into the f4u's best sustained by putting out 2 notches while he already had all of his out. I would have gotten around on him eventually, but the problem was he had enough position already to spend the rest of his speed on making use of all of his flaps, and he got a shot. What I should have done was dump some more flaps, maybe not all of them because he had to climb to me which bled his speed faster than I would have bled mine, then after I defeated his shot and he was spent I would gradually raise flaps back to 2 notches and then sit and wait.

So some key things to remember are the one with more energy entering the circle will win unless the other guy has enough position already to drag it to a stalemate, and you need to be wary of the other guy spending everything he's got at the right time for a shot.

Also, sometimes doing those yo-yos as Violator suggests can help, but if you're in same planes, same weight, all you're doing is adding drag.

If you get on the losing end of the circle there is a way to escape if you're not too far gone already. Keeping at the edge of the stall (or wherever is best for your plane), raise flaps one by one, then very slowly easy off the pressure. Your mindset should be making the other guy turn as much as possible while you build speed at the same time.

[FLS]

Well, that explains that then. Thanks!

One thing you can try if the Zeke is a bad shot is to go out of phase. For example with the bandit behind you go left and when he follows go right etc. The bandit will turn sooner than you to get a shot and that will move him forward letting you move back. Same thing in the vertical or a combination of the two. But that snap shot you give the bandit is how a lot of cannon birds get their kills.

Most fights are lost by the loser rather than won by the winner. In other words, the guy making the biggest or the most mistakes loses. The notion that you win with a winning move is misleading. If neither side makes a mistake or both sides fail to take advantage of mistakes it can be a long fight. Watch the bandit, think about his intent and watch for mistakes.