Author Topic: PCI-E SSDs  (Read 2239 times)

Offline Pudgie

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1280
Re: PCI-E SSDs
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2015, 10:56:13 PM »
Just to put this out there I was on pcper site yesterday & they had a link to an Asus users poll for Asus to determine which chipset-equipped mobo(s) to come up w/ a BIOS to enable NVMe support on:

The 2 leading legacy Intel chipset-equipped mobos in the poll by a huge margin was the X79 & Z87 mobos...............

Naturally I pitched in w/ another vote for the X79 as well.......................

So if all holds up it looks like my Asus RIVG X79 ROG mobo will be getting a BIOS upgrade to enable NVMe support...............

Booyah!

 :aok :D :x

Now if only Intel would feel sorry for me & make a limited run of I7 Haswell-E 2011 DDR3 4\6-core CPU's w/ all 40 PCI-E 3.x lanes w/ a base clock of 4.0Ghz, turbo cache speed of 4.4Ghz just for my X79 mobo then I would be 1 happy dude......................... ...

If only......................... ...........   :pray

 :salute
Win 10 Home 64, AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, MSI MPG X570 Gaming Plus, GSkill FlareX 32Gb DDR4 3200 4x8Gb, XFX Radeon RX 6900X 16Gb, Samsung 950 Pro 512Gb NVMe PCI-E SSD (boot), Samsung 850 Pro 128Gb SATA SSD (pagefile), Creative SoundBlaster X7 DAC-AMP, Intel LAN, SeaSonic PRIME Gold 850W, all CLWC'd

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: PCI-E SSDs
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2015, 12:17:47 AM »
Punting this as I am coming to the end of a very long test cycle that started because of Gmans' question on this topic.

First, I guess I should mention that I have been using a Plextor M.2 128GB PCIe 80mm card with Windows 7 x64 installed with Office apps, while a few games have been installed to a HGST 7,200 rpm 6TB SAS 128MB cache HDD and a 1TB WD Velociraptor 10,000 rpm drive. The OS was also cloned to a 1TB Mushkin Reactor SATA III SSD. Additionally, I used a Crucial Adrenaline 50GB SSC (solid state cache) to accelerate the HDDs with the NVELO Dataplex caching software.

Right off it is obvious that the boot times with the M.2 card are about half what they are with the Reactor SATA SSD. I do not consider boot times to be important, because I rarely have to boot. So, if this saves me twenty seconds each day it's not much to talk about.

As you might expect the M.2 device set the pace for all of the other devices. The Reactor was keeping pace in everything beyond the boot process. The real surprise comes from the Dataplex caching which allowed the 7,200 RPM HGST HDD to keep pace with, and even surpass the Velociraptor (similarly cached and in load times with Civ. V) and in some cases match the Reactor (loading 16k images in PS CS6). I believe you might be able to use a low-end HDD and match SSD performance (or very nearly) with the Adrenaline SSD and the Dataplex software.

As to the M.2 card, if you can afford one large enough to house your OS, and then match that with a standard HDD and caching SSD I think you will have a blazing fast system. I believe that very shortly the drive manufacturer's will begin to release kits for that very purpose. SSDs that are large enough for my storage needs are still too costly, so this is the way I will go.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 12:25:09 AM by Chalenge »
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline GSakis

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: PCI-E SSDs
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2015, 09:32:01 AM »
Punting this as I am coming to the end of a very long test cycle that started because of Gmans' question on this topic.

First, I guess I should mention that I have been using a Plextor M.2 128GB PCIe 80mm card with Windows 7 x64 installed with Office apps, while a few games have been installed to a HGST 7,200 rpm 6TB SAS 128MB cache HDD and a 1TB WD Velociraptor 10,000 rpm drive. The OS was also cloned to a 1TB Mushkin Reactor SATA III SSD. Additionally, I used a Crucial Adrenaline 50GB SSC (solid state cache) to accelerate the HDDs with the NVELO Dataplex caching software.

Right off it is obvious that the boot times with the M.2 card are about half what they are with the Reactor SATA SSD. I do not consider boot times to be important, because I rarely have to boot. So, if this saves me twenty seconds each day it's not much to talk about.

As you might expect the M.2 device set the pace for all of the other devices. The Reactor was keeping pace in everything beyond the boot process. The real surprise comes from the Dataplex caching which allowed the 7,200 RPM HGST HDD to keep pace with, and even surpass the Velociraptor (similarly cached and in load times with Civ. V) and in some cases match the Reactor (loading 16k images in PS CS6). I believe you might be able to use a low-end HDD and match SSD performance (or very nearly) with the Adrenaline SSD and the Dataplex software.

As to the M.2 card, if you can afford one large enough to house your OS, and then match that with a standard HDD and caching SSD I think you will have a blazing fast system. I believe that very shortly the drive manufacturer's will begin to release kits for that very purpose. SSDs that are large enough for my storage needs are still too costly, so this is the way I will go.

1 Terabyte SSD for 340 dollar so you see not so expensive anymore.

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: PCI-E SSDs
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2015, 10:58:16 AM »
Yes. On this board though that is quite often half, or nearly half, of the budget someone has for the entire PC. The idea of the cache approach is that they can get a lot more storage space and the speed by adding a $50 SSD.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline Pudgie

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1280
Re: PCI-E SSDs
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2015, 02:50:28 PM »
Punting this as I am coming to the end of a very long test cycle that started because of Gmans' question on this topic.

First, I guess I should mention that I have been using a Plextor M.2 128GB PCIe 80mm card with Windows 7 x64 installed with Office apps, while a few games have been installed to a HGST 7,200 rpm 6TB SAS 128MB cache HDD and a 1TB WD Velociraptor 10,000 rpm drive. The OS was also cloned to a 1TB Mushkin Reactor SATA III SSD. Additionally, I used a Crucial Adrenaline 50GB SSC (solid state cache) to accelerate the HDDs with the NVELO Dataplex caching software.

Right off it is obvious that the boot times with the M.2 card are about half what they are with the Reactor SATA SSD. I do not consider boot times to be important, because I rarely have to boot. So, if this saves me twenty seconds each day it's not much to talk about.

As you might expect the M.2 device set the pace for all of the other devices. The Reactor was keeping pace in everything beyond the boot process. The real surprise comes from the Dataplex caching which allowed the 7,200 RPM HGST HDD to keep pace with, and even surpass the Velociraptor (similarly cached and in load times with Civ. V) and in some cases match the Reactor (loading 16k images in PS CS6). I believe you might be able to use a low-end HDD and match SSD performance (or very nearly) with the Adrenaline SSD and the Dataplex software.

As to the M.2 card, if you can afford one large enough to house your OS, and then match that with a standard HDD and caching SSD I think you will have a blazing fast system. I believe that very shortly the drive manufacturer's will begin to release kits for that very purpose. SSDs that are large enough for my storage needs are still too costly, so this is the way I will go.

Good stuff, Chalenge. Thanks for posting it!

Storage & the costs per Gb to maintain it should be a concern for those who have a viable purpose for it & SSD's are getting better but can still be expensive & a concern over a HDD so I get that.

Where I was going w/ my testing was strictly performance driven. Where IMO SSD's can help w/ this is not in regards to FPS....CPU, GPU, system mem, display monitors & mobo subsystem performance will determine this, but in the area where a game (but mostly other apps besides a game), whether written well or poorly, or the Windows OS (mostly via the vid card swap file usage but other instances as well) will periodically call for data to be accessed from storage & read into system mem for the game or the OS or the vid card to use or unused\unnecessary data to be paged out of system mem to storage due to either full system mem saturation or the OS deems it unnecessary or the vid card is calling for the rendered frame(s) stored in the swap file created in storage to be flipped to display as the faster this can be done the less chance of interrupt to the flow of the game\app running (CPU & GPU waiting) which can be noted also as a stutter (or a CTD), IOW's the game\app experience is improved. The faster the subsystem this data travels over can help w/ this as well....ie, PCI-E bus vs thru the mobo chipset via SATA III bus.

Now as I understand that AH in particular was written to try to offset this by the game actually calling for data to be "prefetched" directly into system memory in advance before it is needed to try to lessen this effect by--I'm assuming this part but it makes sense to me--utilizing the CPU's wait times when it is not busy processing a thread (this is where & why it makes sense to use devices--NIC's, sound cards, etc--that have their own onboard signal processing capabilities as these devices do not tie up the CPU time processing these signals making more time for the game to use the CPU to operate & prefetch data...mostly texture data as these data packets are fairly large) & this is also where a SSD's speed can help out as the unnecessary texture data has to be paged out of system mem to storage to make room for the new texture data requested to prevent system mem from becoming saturated (fully addressed) causing the game to momentarily "hang" when the OS will then intervene & make room by dong further paging out of deemed unnecessary data to storage to prevent the system from this situation to "protect itself" to ensure there is sufficient memory addressing for the OS (& AH) to operate. This is what I believe Skuzzy is referring to when he says that AH calls for a lot of small writes to storage hence his reluctance to support the usage of an SSD w/ AH in this forum due to the wear induced to the SSD's NAND & subsequently inviting a SSD failure.....not saying that you can't use 1 w/ AH. The advent of TRIM & improving SSD quality & performance is making the risks of using SSD's w/ AH less of a concern--my own testing & usage can attest to this--but should still be taken into account when making decisions on their use......& I get that as well. 

Since my setup is all about the performance & storage isn't a concern (I use mem sticks & DVD's to store any media that I deem important to keep....my storage needs are very small & infrequent), so I went the full SSD route to address the total performance realm of computing........& to satisfy the geek that stirs within me........ :aok :D
 
Since the advent of MS starting w/ Vista having the OS to also perform prefetching on a larger scale, called SuperFetch (which the OS will try to load the system mem fully to address the paging issues as well.....all due to address the slower access time & read\write speeds of a typical HDD using the page file located on it) there will still be instances where a SSD can help an app--& even some games--to run better\smoother (note I didn't say FASTER, this is misunderstood too frequently) as opposed to a HDD in the general sense of operation. Now the gains may be incremental in nature for the costs necessary to gain them, but the gains are there to be had & I have noticed this in my experience. As hardware & software improve, the gains will become less as the issues will be rectified up front & so will cease to be an issue.

What I take from your work here is you have come across & posted a method that can provide the same similar type benefits as using an SSD exclusively, especially a PCI-E SSD, w/ much less exposure to the higher costs per GB & volativity of using SSD's exclusively & IMO that's good stuff to know................. BTW I have shut down the Plextor TurboCache SSD caching software on my PCI-E SSD as I have deemed it to be more overkill for the already noted performance that I'm currently getting out of this SSD w/ the games\apps that I currently use but I know its there to implement if & when the situation changes.............

 :aok

In the end all this is essentially geek speak & is good reading & discussion & has some practical usage now but to most all this is irrelevant due to the current development cycle time but in time all will be going down these paths at some point, just like all else concerning computer usage.
 
 :salute
Win 10 Home 64, AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, MSI MPG X570 Gaming Plus, GSkill FlareX 32Gb DDR4 3200 4x8Gb, XFX Radeon RX 6900X 16Gb, Samsung 950 Pro 512Gb NVMe PCI-E SSD (boot), Samsung 850 Pro 128Gb SATA SSD (pagefile), Creative SoundBlaster X7 DAC-AMP, Intel LAN, SeaSonic PRIME Gold 850W, all CLWC'd

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: PCI-E SSDs
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2015, 10:32:35 PM »
I should have also pointed out that using a cache drive like that requires that you really know what you are doing. I think the SSHD is probably a better approach for people that just want to install and go, rather than fuss around with configurations. Also, using the cache method locks the data to that drive to a single OS, and if something goes wrong there is a potential for severe data loss (50GB can be a lot of data). However, in situations where you have a good backup plan and want the speed you have the option.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline GSakis

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: PCI-E SSDs
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2015, 02:34:50 AM »
This video shows how everything you do on the computer will be faster with ssd. Hybrid is still much slower even when test was done with very old and cheap 60Gb ssd.


Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: PCI-E SSDs
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2015, 02:47:30 PM »
Look if you do not do a fair assessment then your test is worthless. In the case of the SSHD posted it is a 7200 rpm drive augmented with a 4 GB SLC SSD. It hardly compares to a similar HDD with a 64 GB SSD. Even if it were an 8GB/500GB as they claimed it could not compare.

However, what this demonstration does show is how the SSHD compares, which is still a fair compromise for capacity versus speed. What is still lacking is the peak capacities that HDD have to offer, which will soon be in the 12-24 TB range (currently I have 6TB drives in large numbers).

The Dataplex system that I mentioned before has been purchased by Samsung, potentially for a new line of drives (still not announced). Nvelo ceased development on the W8 update during the Samsung notice period and have let it be known that there will be no further updates for W8, or W10 (it's Samsung property now). Dataplex is the best option when it comes to cache setups, but it comes with several requirements that prevent it from being used in certain setups. There are hacks that allow it to be used on single volume data drives (the license key requirement has been removed since buyout), but the "no multi-boot OS configurations" remains. Still, Dataplex is not recommended for all situations for obvious reasons.

And finally, the M.2 PCIe SSD vs M.2 SATA SSD is an option that allows the SATA ports to remain open for data drives (unless the BIOS defeats some ports on certain MBs that I have not heard about). Of these two card options the M.2 PCIe SSD is the best if you don't mind the cost (128GB for about $1/GB), because the bandwidth it makes use of is potentially PCIe v.3 x4 (depending on the MB). That equates to 24GB/s vs 6GB/s for SATAIII, though usually MBs offer 10-20GB/s. Even if the MB is limited to a v2 x2 setup that translates to 5GB/s which matches almost perfectly what SATA III delivers in reality. The real advantage, to anyone that could care less about the speed (such as myself) is an OS that does not take a SATA port away from data.

Are SSDs more reliable than HDDs? No. The primary reason that no data system is perfect comes from the fact that data is always vulnerable. Whether you choose to accept it, or not, anything you put on a HDD or SSD can be gone forever in an instant. I would say that SSDs are more accident prone because of their sensitivity to electrostatic events. Even on this board we continue to see systems made by hardware manufacturers and suggested by users with PSUs that are prone to issues in the short term that will eventually lead to the loss of the system. That danger is not going away, so any electronic device can suffer from a short lifespan.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: PCI-E SSDs
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2015, 03:04:48 PM »
I used Anvil's Storage Utilities to benchmark the hard drives I have cached.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline GSakis

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 51
Re: PCI-E SSDs
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2015, 03:46:52 PM »
Chalenge has 20 terabytes of data. Average user has 200 gigabytes of data. Chalenge needs hybrid - average user is best off with SSD. Simple as that. Don't confuse yourself with others.

Offline Skuzzy

  • Support Member
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31462
      • HiTech Creations Home Page
Re: PCI-E SSDs
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2015, 03:59:04 PM »
Chalenge has 20 terabytes of data. Average user has 200 gigabytes of data. Chalenge needs hybrid - average user is best off with SSD. Simple as that. Don't confuse yourself with others.

The storage requirements of end users has been growing annually for years.  There have been many environmental elements driving that and it continues to do so.

Yes, not everyone needs 20TB of storage, today.  More and more are needing in excess of 1TB as the popularity of posting videos continues to grow.  When 4K video support is well entrenched, that number could easily double or triple.

The need for more storage could easily surpass the ability to reduce the price per TB of SSD's.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: PCI-E SSDs
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2015, 04:02:21 PM »
I would call that a classic case of underestimate.

I'm going to walk away from this thread now, because I smell the foul air that precedes use of the BAN STICK.  :bolt:
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.