Were long range heavy bombers effective?

[PR3D4TOR]

Hitting a single moving target with a .50 cal from a flexible mount is a lot more difficult than spraying a tight formation of B-17's. Even the MK 108 had a better effective range vs bombers than their defensive fire. Or as Chuck Sasse, B-17 top turret gunner put it: "We got our tulips shot off. And the Messerschmitts had a 30-millimeter cannon that was just a death trap. They knew exactly how far away they had to be to stay out of range of our guns, and they’d sit back and take their shots."

That won't happen in AH, because AH is a cartoon arcade game compared to real life.

[FLOOB]

You can lob 20 mm shells into a formation of heavy bombers. Only in AH does the 20 mm and .50 cal have equal range due to the time out.

In game the m2 has better range than the mg151. In real life the m2 has much better range than the mg151.

Did you just imply that mk108 has better effective range than .50 bmg in real life? You don't really believe that do you?

[Lusche]

Hitting a single moving target with a .50 cal from a flexible mount is a lot more difficult than spraying a tight formation of B-17's. Even the MK 108 had a better effective range vs bombers than their defensive fire. Or as Chuck Sasse, B-17 top turret gunner put it: "We got our tulips shot off. And the Messerschmitts had a 30-millimeter cannon that was just a death trap. They knew exactly how far away they had to be to stay out of range of our guns, and they’d sit back and take their shots."

That won't happen in AH, because AH is a cartoon arcade game compared to real life.

You might take a look at actual "real life" ballistical data

[Arlo]

Like you would know! Oh .... wait ..... 

[PR3D4TOR]

You might take a look at actual "real life" ballistical data

Has nothing to do with ballistics. Just as that real life B-17 gunner I quoted (you bleeding ignorants) knew. It's about effective range, the range at which you can actually hit something. For the .50 cals fired from the turrets it was no more than a thousand yards against a fighter sized target. For the flex mounts much, much less. The German fighters could sit outside the effective range of the gunners and lob shells at the bombers in relative safety. As for the MK 108 the Germans would often use them as mini flak as the self destruct fuze would detonate the shell at 1,100-1,500 meters depending on speed and altitude.

[PR3D4TOR]

There's a reason the self escorting bomber concept was a total failure you know.

[Zimme83]

There's a reason the self escorting bomber concept was a total failure you know.

Yep. Bombers needed more or less air supremacy in order to be efficient. Without the industrial capacity to produce a never ending stream of heavy bombers and escort fighters the bomber campain would not have had any chance to be succesful.
And aldough the bombing campain casued severe damage to Germany it was not the main reason for the German defeat. more than 80% of Wehrmacht were deployed to the Eastern front and the tide there turned back in 1942, well before the bombing campain became efficent. The meat grinder in east wore down Luftwaffe so when the RAF and AAF launched their back breaking offensive in 1944 Luftwaffe hadnt enough strenght to respond.

[Scherf]

I'd be surprised if Mk 108s had much range at all - low velocity as they were. Mk 103s different story, but 108s were like lobbing hand grenades.

[FLOOB]

As for the MK 108 the Germans would often use them as mini flak as the self destruct fuze would detonate the shell at 1,100-1,500 meters depending on speed and altitude.

Where did you find this information? From what I know the germans opted not to use the self destruct fuse even over Germany. Secondly, even at a 1000 yards, which would be before the self destruct fuse would fire, the mine geschos projectile has fallen about 140 feet which means the target would be below the pilots line of sight. And thirdly it seems a foolish waste of ammo as the 30mm shell detonating outside of the targeted bombers is going to be harmless. The self destruct fuse operated by centrifugal force to to fire within 2000 meters.

[MiloMorai]

The tide turned for the Germans in the east when they failed at Stalingrad in Feb 1943.

This chart shows that the Lw was ground down in the West, http://don-caldwell.we.bs/jg26/thtrlosses.htm

It also shows that more of the Lw was in the West.

[bustr]

FLOOB,

Some years back someone posted info from an FW190 A8 pilot's memoirs. I followed the link to read it. I think there was maybe two full time A8 groups with the MK108 wing mounted who fought the bomber streams. From what I remember, the pilot said his group would stand off about 1100m and a bit high. Then fire their MK108 at the bombers outside of the tail gunners range. Their goal was to have the self destruct fuse detonate the round near the bombers. The self destruct fuse for the Mine shell was an 1100m fuse.

As for the mentioning of four engine aircraft standing off from the black Thursday raid. I read years ago from a luft memoir that FW200 stood off to lob their front facing 20mm at the bombers. Chemical potential rounds are pretty much range insensitive versus kinetic potential rounds. Even the MG FF had about a 1000m range.

[PR3D4TOR]

Yes, exactly. The Germans used the MK 108 in this fashion in an attempt to break up formations, just like they did with rockets. The 30 mm round contains 85 grams of PETN, equal to 140 grams of TNT. About the same explosive force as a M67 hand grenade. Firing 11 rounds per second with two guns per plane, a squadron of Sturmbock 190's or 110G-2 could produce a hail of exploding shrapnel hell denser than any flak barrage onto a tight formation of bombers. This kind of Pulk-Zerstörer formation attack was short lived however, since it became suicidal when the P-51's showed up.

[Arlo]

Gettin harder and harder to map this thread.

[FLOOB]

FLOOB,

Some years back someone posted info from an FW190 A8 pilot's memoirs. I followed the link to read it. I think there was maybe two full time A8 groups with the MK108 wing mounted who fought the bomber streams. From what I remember, the pilot said his group would stand off about 1100m and a bit high. Then fire their MK108 at the bombers outside of the tail gunners range. Their goal was to have the self destruct fuse detonate the round near the bombers. The self destruct fuse for the Mine shell was an 1100m fuse.

As for the mentioning of four engine aircraft standing off from the black Thursday raid. I read years ago from a luft memoir that FW200 stood off to lob their front facing 20mm at the bombers. Chemical potential rounds are pretty much range insensitive versus kinetic potential rounds. Even the MG FF had about a 1000m range.

Well that was dumb of them. So you've read at least one account where they did install self destruct fuses? Interesting.

And no predator they weren't fragmentation rounds, that was kind of the point of the m schos, thin walls more room for explosive.

[Lusche]

Firing 11 rounds per second with two guns per plane, a squadron of Sturmbock 190's or 110G-2 could produce a hail of exploding shrapnel hell denser than any flak barrage onto a tight formation of bombers.

Not quite.

The Minengeschos was very thin walled and designed for maximum concussion blast. It produced very little shrapnel. totally different from hand grenades or flak rounds, which had large walls rifled to produce a lot of shrapnel of specific, efficient sizes.