Author Topic: Were long range heavy bombers effective?  (Read 15878 times)

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #165 on: June 06, 2015, 09:06:32 PM »
Thanks. To me it looks like the round struck between the main fuel tanks and the feeder tank, in the area of the shut-off valve. Immediately after we see a blow out between the engine nacelles. It may not have been a tank at all, but perhaps only the fuel lines.
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Offline DaveBB

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #166 on: June 07, 2015, 09:24:25 AM »
Self sealing wasn't fool proof and would not stand much chance of completely sealing a hit by a 30 mm, but as I said in my previous post I think it wasn't a direct hit. I'm also not sure how much fuel would be left in the feeder tank by the time a B-17 reaches German airspace as I'm not that familiar with the B-17's fuel system.

A direct hit would probably have resulted in something similar to this:

(Image removed from quote.)

I have no doubt that a wing could blow off a B-17, but something doesn't seem right about that video. 
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Offline Scherf

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #167 on: June 07, 2015, 09:53:43 AM »
It's a missile test, think it was the Nike, though I make no claim to understand which missile is which.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #168 on: June 07, 2015, 10:31:07 AM »
You're right.

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Offline Mister Fork

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #169 on: June 09, 2015, 03:14:48 PM »
PR3D4TOR et al...that was the only mechanical result...7 families would of received letters to their mom's and dad's that their sons (aged 18-26) were killed in action over Germany.

While a lot of us trivialize the mechanics of weapon effectiveness, for every bomber we see being shot down, there is something we must not forget...

I'm just as guilty of this in the past as well forgetting that for every bomber we see being blown out of the sky, analysing the weapon effectiveness, a mother bathed a young baby, helped them get ready for school, worried about them when they were sick, and then watch with fear and anxiety when they signed up to enlist to become airman after watching a patriotic Jimmy Stewart infomercial for the USAAF. They raised these young men, read them stories as children, and watched with love and pride in them growing into adults.  For every video we see, every picture we analyze, there are lives torn and hearts broken. And loosing a child, even if they are a young airman , it destroys lives of those left behind.

So please, we need to remember and show respect and at least being mindful of what some of these images really show.

Now, back to our discussion. Large scale bomber formations were about as useless as titz on a bull and were nothing more than to bait the Luftwaffe up into the air so the Allied forces could shoot them down and establish air superiority out of pure attrition and sustainment of effort.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 03:17:11 PM by Mister Fork »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #170 on: June 09, 2015, 04:36:12 PM »
While we're at it let's not forget what those bombers were doing and why they were being shot down. War is an ugly thing.
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Offline Mister Fork

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #171 on: June 09, 2015, 04:38:09 PM »
While we're at it let's not forget what those bombers were doing and why they were being shot down. War is an ugly thing.
:salute - yep, they (those shooting down bombers) were defending their homeland. War is fuggly..  :old:
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #172 on: June 09, 2015, 05:01:44 PM »
Imo, The prob best way to use the heavy bombers should have been limiting the strikes against cities to only hit major industrial complex and vital industries (most of them were dispersed and out of reach anyway) and railway junctions. Other than that focus should have been military targets like airfields, ports, supply stores, troop concentrations etc.
if u look at BoB, the Luftwaffe were very close to win as long as they focused on RAF bases. Once they switched to city bombing they gave the initiative away.
 
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #173 on: June 09, 2015, 05:32:36 PM »
That is a myth. The Luftwaffe were never close to winning the BoB. The RAF was strained, but their losses were sustainable. The Luftwaffe's losses were not. At the end of the battle the RAF was stronger than when the battle began.

As for the best use of allied air power: Interdiction, as you say, transportation network, airfields, supplies.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #174 on: June 09, 2015, 06:01:51 PM »
RAF had a tough time to replace their pilots, in numbers it worked but in terms of experience it was harder. During late august to 6th of September RAF losses was not sustainable and a few more weeks with pressure on the air fields could have been catastrophic. But u are right in that RAF was far more prepared to replace losses than the Luftwaffe.

Edit: But I can agree that even historians have a hard time to determinate how close or far RAF was a defeat in 1940, its simply too many "if" involved.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 06:19:03 PM by Zimme83 »
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #175 on: June 09, 2015, 09:46:25 PM »
RAF had a tough time to replace their pilots, in numbers it worked but in terms of experience it was harder. During late august to 6th of September RAF losses was not sustainable and a few more weeks with pressure on the air fields could have been catastrophic.


OK.  And what then?  The Nazi plan to cross the Channel was to string mine belts either side of the invasion path and try to get some U-boats into the mix.  The troops (much less tanks) would have had to cross on barges towed by tugboats in the Channel chop and current.  That transit would have taken something like 12 hours.  It's unlikely that the Royal Navy would have sailed out and surrendered.

And more:  The RAF flew from, and defended, its forward airfields because it wanted to.  It didn't have to.  Had England gotten over its pride (which killed a lot of its people during the July Channel convoy debacle) it would simply have withdrawn its fighters to 12 Group bases - largely out of German escort range - and flown from there when required.

I get agitated when people assume that defeating the RAF would have resulted in the successful Nazi occupation of England.  There was a lot to be done in between, and the General Staff half-seriously treated the whole operation as a glorified river crossing.

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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #176 on: June 09, 2015, 10:06:48 PM »
The entire operation was a big FUBAR from the German side and was very poorly planned and executed. The overall strategy wasnt worked out so I agree that it had under all circumstances very small chances of succeeding, aldough RN would probably had a very hard time if they had to operate in the Channel during German air superiority.
My point however were not to determinate if Seelöwe would have been succesful or not. Point was to show that attacking military target like air fields etc were much more effective than strategic bombing of cities.
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Offline Volron

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #177 on: June 09, 2015, 10:11:58 PM »

OK.  And what then?  The Nazi plan to cross the Channel was to string mine belts either side of the invasion path and try to get some U-boats into the mix.  The troops (much less tanks) would have had to cross on barges towed by tugboats in the Channel chop and current.  That transit would have taken something like 12 hours.  It's unlikely that the Royal Navy would have sailed out and surrendered.

And more:  The RAF flew from, and defended, its forward airfields because it wanted to.  It didn't have to.  Had England gotten over its pride (which killed a lot of its people during the July Channel convoy debacle) it would simply have withdrawn its fighters to 12 Group bases - largely out of German escort range - and flown from there when required.

I get agitated when people assume that defeating the RAF would have resulted in the successful Nazi occupation of England.  There was a lot to be done in between, and the General Staff half-seriously treated the whole operation as a glorified river crossing.

- oldman

Even with the RAF done, the Kriegsmarine would not have been capable of dealing with the RN head on, which is what would be needed in order to defend the invasion force.  If I recall correctly, they didn't even have that many u-boats during that time frame.  I recall seeing a show in which the plan the RN had was to use their light ships (DD's, CL's, CA's, etc,) to "clear" the mines to allow their heavy cruisers and battleships to get within range of the invasion force.
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Offline Jabberwock

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #178 on: June 09, 2015, 10:20:31 PM »
Imo, The prob best way to use the heavy bombers should have been limiting the strikes against cities to only hit major industrial complex and vital industries (most of them were dispersed and out of reach anyway) and railway junctions. Other than that focus should have been military targets like airfields, ports, supply stores, troop concentrations etc.

The problems with this are manyfold:

US heavy bomber combat boxes were ideally about 2000 ft across for a 36 plane formation, and about 2500 ft across for a 54 plane formation. Mutual defense doctrine required these large formations in occupied airspace. They were often larger in practice, particularly when faced with heavy flak or high wind conditions. So, if you want large bomber formations, you're going to have to accept lower accuracy;

Major industrial complexes and vital industries weren't dispersed or out of reach - at least not in Germany or Japan. They were typically located in and around the outskirts of major cities, quite often with high-density worker housing in the immediate areas. The same story goes for railway junctions, except that many of these were located in the residential hearts of major cities. Same thing for many airfields;

Precision really was not an option. 1944 medium altitude (15,000 ft) daylight missions had an average CEP of 825 ft to 1175 ft. At average altitudes of 23,000 to 27,000 ft, CEP for 1944 average just under 3000 ft. Blind-boming and missions with heavy cloud had CEPs of better than 5200 ft. The average 8th AF radial bombing error on German oil industry targets in 1944-1945 was 2.5 miles. Just 2.2% of bombs dropped fell within the boundaries of production facilities.

Here are the USSBS figures for September 1944 to December 1944 for "visual bombing with "good to fair visibility":

Percentage of bombs dropped within
     1000ft  0.5mile  1 mile  3 miles  5 miles %eff
A     30.0      64.3      82.4    91.5      92.2     14

If you want to bomb nothing but military targets on the western front between 1942 and June 1944, then you're going to be fighting a bomber war similar to the one the RAF experienced in 1939-1940. You'll face a limited number of targets, of minimal to moderate strategic value, that are comparatively well protected. Due to the limited target choice, the Luftwaffe will generally know where you're attacking, and they'll be able to concentrate resources more effectively. Not a war I want to fight.

There was plenty the USAAF could do to improve its accuracy. From an old discussion on this topic, on another board, I made this list:

Use larger bombs,
Bomb from lower altitudes, 11,000-15,000 ft would have been necessary for sub 750ft CEPs
Bomb in smaller formations,
Increase intervals between bomb groups to reduce target occlusion
Reduce the width of combat boxes,
Switch to an all B-17 force, as they were more accurate bombing platforms than B-24
Increase the level of training for crews, particularly for pilots, bombardiers and navigatiors
Improve meteorological forecasting, particularly wind directions at targets
Never visually bomb through anything more than four tenths cloud,
Abandon blind bombing techniques
Introduce pathfinder aircraft
Reduce or eliminate use of fragmentation bombs and incendiaries

The 8th AF determined the four most significant factors in terms of accuracy were:
The cloud/visibility conditions above the target. This could affect accuracy by a factor of 10.
The number of bomb groups involved in the raid. A raid of three bomb groups was up to 40% more accurate than a raid of 10 or more groups
Bombing altitude.
The amount of flak over a target. Particularly heavy flak could halve bombing accuracy.

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Were long range heavy bombers effective?
« Reply #179 on: June 09, 2015, 10:27:37 PM »
Even with the RAF done, the Kriegsmarine would not have been capable of dealing with the RN head on, which is what would be needed in order to defend the invasion force.  If I recall correctly, they didn't even have that many u-boats during that time frame.  I recall seeing a show in which the plan the RN had was to use their light ships (DD's, CL's, CA's, etc,) to "clear" the mines to allow their heavy cruisers and battleships to get within range of the invasion force.

IF the RAF had been completely suppressed to the point that the Luftwaffe had total air dominance over southern England, the RN would not have had the opportunity to interfere with any German channel crossing. Moving 1940-era warships with their very limited AA capabilities into range of Stukas and Ju 88's would have been suicide. Just ask any of the crew of HMS Prince of Wales or HMS Repulse...
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