Were long range heavy bombers effective?

[PR3D4TOR]

If anyone want to work their way through all the sinkings of WWII they can start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shipwrecks_in_September_1939  It basically starts with Ju 87's ravaging the Polish navy.

[PR3D4TOR]

So by the time the Prince of Wales and Repulse was sunk the Luftwaffe was clearly the most experienced air force in the world in anti-shipping operations. That is, at least the part of the Luftwaffe that survived the Battle of Britain.

[MiloMorai]

At Dunkirk most of the RN D losses the ships that were not moving or at low speed.

RN losses can be found at http://www.naval-history.net/WW2aBritishLosses01BB.htm

[Zimme83]

LW werent that good at all in sinking ships and against towed barges u dont need battleships, torpedo boats would have been lethal.

[Ack-Ack]

OK.  And what then?  The Nazi plan to cross the Channel was to string mine belts either side of the invasion path and try to get some U-boats into the mix.  The troops (much less tanks) would have had to cross on barges towed by tugboats in the Channel chop and current.  That transit would have taken something like 12 hours.  It's unlikely that the Royal Navy would have sailed out and surrendered.

And more:  The RAF flew from, and defended, its forward airfields because it wanted to.  It didn't have to.  Had England gotten over its pride (which killed a lot of its people during the July Channel convoy debacle) it would simply have withdrawn its fighters to 12 Group bases - largely out of German escort range - and flown from there when required.

I get agitated when people assume that defeating the RAF would have resulted in the successful Nazi occupation of England.  There was a lot to be done in between, and the General Staff half-seriously treated the whole operation as a glorified river crossing.

- oldman

I think it was sometime back in the '70s when the British ran some staff level war game scenarios on the Battle of Britain and in each scenario, the British won, using the strategy you basically outlined.  The end result of their war gaming was that Germany was defeated within a few months of getting a foot hold on Britain.

[Ack-Ack]

Even with the RAF done, the Kriegsmarine would not have been capable of dealing with the RN head on, which is what would be needed in order to defend the invasion force.  If I recall correctly, they didn't even have that many u-boats during that time frame.  I recall seeing a show in which the plan the RN had was to use their light ships (DD's, CL's, CA's, etc,) to "clear" the mines to allow their heavy cruisers and battleships to get within range of the invasion force.

The Kriegsmarine also took a beating in Norway, reducing their effectiveness if called on to support any landing against England.

[Ack-Ack]

So by the time the Prince of Wales and Repulse was sunk the Luftwaffe was clearly the most experienced air force in the world in anti-shipping operations. That is, at least the part of the Luftwaffe that survived the Battle of Britain.

The British were just as successful (if not more so) at the beginning of the war in anti-shipping operations as the Germans were.  Just read about the operations flown by 2 Group against German shipping and the success of British anti-shipping operations in the Med, like the Battle of Taranto or the Battle of Cape Matapan.  Also, at the time of the sinking of HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales, Japan was probably the undisputed master of anti-shipping operations.

ack-ack

[Zimme83]

I think we can leave the hypothetic BoB debate now, not even the German commanders (except maybe Hitler and Göring) belived that an invasion of Britain was possible.

[PR3D4TOR]

At Dunkirk most of the RN D losses the ships that were not moving or at low speed.

RN losses can be found at http://www.naval-history.net/WW2aBritishLosses01BB.htm

Back that up with something please. And your link doesn't even cite cause of loss for destroyers.

[PR3D4TOR]

LW werent that good at all in sinking ships ...

Back that up with something please.

[PR3D4TOR]

The British were just as successful (if not more so) at the beginning of the war in anti-shipping operations as the Germans were.

Really... From June 1940 to February 1941 the Luftwaffe Fw200 units alone sank 365,000 tons of Allied shipping. The Luftwaffe sank, crippled or damaged about 300 vessels of varying size in the 10 days in and around Operation Dynamo (Dunkirk).

Just read about the operations flown by 2 Group against German shipping and the success of British anti-shipping operations in the Med, like the Battle of Taranto or the Battle of Cape Matapan.

The Battle of Taranto was the British sneak attack against Italian naval units laying at anchor. It was a daring raid, but only one of the three Italian battleships damaged was put out of action for more than seven months.

Little more than a month later at noon on January 10th, 1941 HMS Illustrious, the carrier whose planes had attacked the Italian fleet at Taranto, along with the main forces of the Mediterranean Fleet, consisting of HMS Warspite, HMS Valiant and 7 destroyers came under attack by 25 or more Ju87 and Ju88 bombers. Illustrious was severely damaged as a result of 6 direct bomb hits and several near misses, which caused fires and disabled her steering gear.

Later the same day the Luftwaffe returned with about 30 aircraft and attacked the fleet again in which another hit was was made on Illustrious, and HMS Valiant was also damaged. The crippled HMS Illustrious was withdrawn from the Med and repaired in the United States. She did not return to action until 1942. The Luftwaffe lost 6 or 7 aircraft in the attack.

The Battle of Cape Matapan was a significant RN victory at sea sinking three Italian cruisers and two destroyers. However at the same time of the war during the German invasion of Greece the Luftwaffe all but destroyed the entire Hellenic Royal Navy sinking 25 ships including two battleships. The surviving cruiser Averof and six destroyers managed to escape and joined the RN in the Med.

Also, at the time of the sinking of HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales, Japan was probably the undisputed master of anti-shipping operations.

Well, that's the myth, but is it supported by the facts? By that time I would bet both the Luftwaffe and RAF Coastal Command were far more experienced in anti shipping operations.

[Karnak]

It's silly, I know. The premise was that the RAF had been destroyed to the point of total Luftwaffe air domination over southern England.

It is useless to discuss such a thing as it never would have happened.  The RAF would have pulled its fighters back for a last ditch effort to cover the Royal Navy's ships against the invasion before losing all of them.  Mid you, the Germans probably would have believed they had wiped the RAF fighters out.  They proved frighteningly gullible as to the number of fighters the British actually had.

Well, that's the myth, but is it supported by the facts? By that time I would bet both the Luftwaffe and RAF Coastal Command were far more experienced in anti shipping operations.

The hit rate of Japanese dive bombers against ships prior to Midway was about twice what Ju87 pilots obtained at Dunkirk and the lead up to the Battle of Britain.  Torpedo hit rates were similarly higher.

The Japanese, before losing their highly trained aircrews, were undoubtedly the best at anti-shipping operations using aircraft.

[PR3D4TOR]

It is useless to discuss such a thing as it never would have happened.

I totally agree.

The hit rate of Japanese dive bombers against ships prior to Midway was about twice what Ju87 pilots obtained at Dunkirk and the lead up to the Battle of Britain.  Torpedo hit rates were similarly higher.

Can you cite a source for that. I'd be very interested to read more on this. What about after the BoB and the fights in the Med?

[Karnak]

Can you cite a source for that. I'd be very interested to read more on this. What about after the BoB and the fights in the Med?

Sorry, no.  It is something I came across in my decades long fascination with WWII aviation.  If you read about the strengths and weaknesses of the IJN's training programs it is entirely believable.

[MiloMorai]

No Ju88s attacked Force A on Jan 10 1941.

18 He111s of KG 26 and 43 Ju87s of StG 1 and StG 2 escorted by 10 Bf110s of ZG 26.