Anatomy of a 2v1 Engagement

[pembquist]

The point of the weave is to make choosing a target an inherently disadvantaged choice. There's typically very little defensive or hard maneuvering; rather, the defense comes from the positioning of your wingman in relation to you, and therefore your enemy.

Exactly. There never really was a Thatch Weave, it was a Thatch Wah. On my part, as I think I said, I flat turned towards Muzzy, single plane no throttle etc. just sort of duh... before realizing this wasn't going to work as I didn't know how to do it and knew I was doing it wrong. The mistake I made was not calling out that this wasn't going to work immediately on the first whiffle, I blame addlement.

[Muzzy]

Exactly. There never really was a Thatch Weave, it was a Thatch Wah. On my part, as I think I said, I flat turned towards Muzzy, single plane no throttle etc. just sort of duh... before realizing this wasn't going to work as I didn't know how to do it and knew I was doing it wrong. The mistake I made was not calling out that this wasn't going to work immediately on the first whiffle, I blame addlement.

Oddly enough addlement is something that happens quite a bit, especially in somewhat higher stress situations like the "one-and-done" environment of FSO. With the reduced icon ranges and the pressure to accomplish the mission, it's very easy to suffer information overload.

[pembquist]

 .....both pilots need to maintain an orientation so that when both aircraft are on the same heading, they are line abreast.....

Failure to do this is what I am talking about when I say I find it harder to figure out what my wingman is doing than an enemy. It is fine flying straight and level but staying parallel and having control over spacing while changing direction and pitch are skills I just don't have yet. The feedback loop has a huge lag and overcorrection function built into it at this point. Take the tactical turn for instance, I get it on paper but I'm pretty sure that trying it out will be me wandering all over till I get the physical sense of it. What Bozon says about flexibility vs drills seems spot on but there is flexible and than there is over cooked pasta.

[Skyyr]

In games like Aces High, I've found that the loose deuce approach works best for wingman tactics, mainly for the reasons Bozon outlined. Because of that, most of the most successful wingman tactics stem from a mutual level of tactic employment and understanding. It becomes as important to know what the appropriate response to a bandit as, as it is to know when to employ the correct tactics... both for the pilot and the wingman.

For example, knowing how to employ a thatch weave is only half of the equation; knowing when to employ it is just as important. In any given situation, there is usually one best maneuver to perform (others might be good options, but usually only one will be the best overall). Know which maneuver that is, and having a wingman that has the same level of knowledge, makes it very easy to predict your wingman with little to no communication. A good wingman will have a similar level understanding, and this allows both of you to predict what the other will do based on knowing that they'll perform the correct "textbook" response to a situation. It's a scenario where being predictable (to a degree) becomes important.

Once you've reached that level, communication then becomes less about what your wingman needs to do and more about describing the situation to your wingman, knowing they will perform X maneuver in response to the situation, because it's the appropriate response.

A good sortie example:

[artik]

With the reduced icon ranges and the pressure to accomplish the mission, it's very easy to suffer information overload.

You said something VERY critical.

I had flown with you/your command in several case at scenarios. I noticed a tendency to take several squadrons and put them on a single VOX channel - like single bomber or fighter command. I remember at some point, flying as a squadron CO I simply refused to do it.

When you enter dogfight short and efficient communication is critical you should be able to call:

- muzzy break north
- pemb boggy on your 6 start left turn"
- artik on zooms out, muzzy in shooting

You can do it on a squadron VOX efficiently if you have 8-12 pilots, if you get more pilots shouting what is going on it is as good as mute the radio.  With a range of accents (not all have English as mother tongue - me), poor calling procedures and poor vox quality "joined" VOX channel are disaster to happen.

Ideal to have group VOX + Command at TS or even text.

Note some groups do have good wingman training and communicate all the time to improve the SA. It is even more critical with short icon range when verbal communication vastly improves the SA.

So it is very critical to have VOX turned to a local tactical group.

[artik]

Shaw's book is interesting and good for the general concept of things (I only read parts of it), but the MA works a little differently. Players are not disciplined military pilots, risk taking is a lot higher (there is no real danger to the player), and wingmen often fly mismatched planes of different performances.

...

Once when 101 was much more active at Aces High the Shaw's book wasn't "a concept" it was major training tool.

We used to do major training at DA 1vs2, 2vs2, 4vs4 and more. These techniques were highly effective but require squadron level training where debrief was 2/3 of the time and flight was about 1/3. Of course it is all dynamic - even wingman assignment could be changed in flight.

At MA it requires the squadron to fly similar planes for similar roles and try to always fly missions together - i.e. not to take off on your own. But once you do it - it is highly efficient. Sometimes I met at MA a section of lets 2 aircrafts of same type, usually in line abreast formation. Usually they are deadly. And usually I discover that they come from same squadron later.

However the best application of the technique is of course SEA. I remember several cases when we 101 squadron with average or even below average pilots on their own kill other group buts with virtually 0:8 kill ratio.

Once we flew 8 F4Fs met 8 or 12 zeros in a scenario. We split into two groups one engaged and bring guys down other entered later with altitude advantage. AFAIR we killed all zeros loosing AFAIR 1 F4F (later all our F4F run out of gas on the way home and ditched at sea, but it was our CO's fault (ViFF) who pushed us too hard to the limit)


Bottom line. It requires training training and training. Reading is good but what is more important to fly and do good debriefing.

[Muzzy]

You said something VERY critical.

I had flown with you/your command in several case at scenarios. I noticed a tendency to take several squadrons and put them on a single VOX channel - like single bomber or fighter command. I remember at some point, flying as a squadron CO I simply refused to do it.

When you enter dogfight short and efficient communication is critical you should be able to call:

- muzzy break north
- pemb boggy on your 6 start left turn"
- artik on zooms out, muzzy in shooting

You can do it on a squadron VOX efficiently if you have 8-12 pilots, if you get more pilots shouting what is going on it is as good as mute the radio.  With a range of accents (not all have English as mother tongue - me), poor calling procedures and poor vox quality "joined" VOX channel are disaster to happen.

Ideal to have group VOX + Command at TS or even text.

Note some groups do have good wingman training and communicate all the time to improve the SA. It is even more critical with short icon range when verbal communication vastly improves the SA.

So it is very critical to have VOX turned to a local tactical group.

This incident was particularly difficult because of my squadron's situation at the time. We were assigned scouting duty and had spread out by section (2-3 planes each) to cover our area. When my section made contact with the cons, I had my other two sections rendezvous at a position closer to the carrier we were protecting. We had another friendly squad at our location and I did not want to commit my entire group until I knew exactly what we were facing. At any rate, placing my reserves closer to the CV gave them a better chance at intercepting anything that happened to get behind my section.

In the middle of the fight with Hopper, my second group got a report of another incoming attack and asked me for clearance to engage. I had to give them orders will still focused on the dogfight I was in. On top of that, they were using squad vox for tactical purposes once they got into a fight. So not only am I in a tough duel, I'm also hearing vox chatter from another fight over which I had little control. On top of that, one of my other planes had become separated from me in the fight. Essentially, this was what I was dealing with:

1. Tactical disposition of my squadron. (i.e. do I commit my reserves to this fight or hold them back?)

2. Location of my lost wingman.

3. Location of the B5N's I was trying to hunt down (lost sight and never managed to catch them).

4. Situation of my 2nd and 3rd section as they engaged another enemy bomber group.

5. Fighting Hopper alongside Pembquit.

6. Trying to send intel to the Allied leader.

7. Location of friendly squadrons we were assisting.

That's a lot to keep track of in a battle.

[artik]

@Muzzy...  I wasn't talking about squadron CO. But rather at ordinary pilots.

And yep COs are WAY overloaded... Your picture isn't new for me    but that's the duty and big part of the fun

[JVboob]

Great read and skyrr great great info <S>

I gotta brag on a former squaddie. 49Pepper, (R.I.P brother), was my wingman for several hours every day for several months. We flew the loose deuce and to great effect. If you use the same wingman you learn what each other are best at what each other will do next (almost reading each others thoughts).

At first we had nothing, about a week later we became good at communicating and started to see results, after about 2 month we had it down. Coms started to dissappear more and more. First was the where is he, hes there... then even less coms no more bring him left right up or down ect...  Pepper knew exactly what I wanted in 90% of the engagements that I was in trail and I knew what he wanted when he was in trail.