Author Topic: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina  (Read 3969 times)

Offline mikeWe9a

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 261
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2015, 06:02:18 PM »
Technically, this wasn't "uncontrolled" airspace, otherwise the controller wouldn't have been vectoring the F-16.  It was most likely (not having the exact location or charts handy) Class E airspace, which is controlled, but for which VFR traffic is allowed to operate without contacting controllers ("nonparticipating" I believe is the term used).  Traffic separation service is provided between participating aircraft, and between participating and nonparticipating aircraft as allowed by controller workload.  Pilots are required in all cases to gain visual contact with all traffic and maintain separation unless in IMC (i.e. in clouds with no visibility).  For an aircraft talking to the radar controller, you get assistance by getting traffic called out (if ATC sees it) and even vectors as the controller is able to provide them, but the responsibility is ultimately the pilot's.  If the aircraft is not talking to the controller, you get no help and the responsibility still rests, ultimately, with the pilot.

So in this case, both aircraft operated under the rules except for one (critical) part.  Both pilots failed to see the other traffic and to avoid it.  The F-16 pilot was apparently unable to leverage the traffic callout into visual contact, while the Cessna pilot did not avail himself of that option, and also failed to see and avoid the impending collision.

Mike

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2015, 06:09:58 PM »
Thank you for clearing that up.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline eagl

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6769
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2015, 08:04:47 PM »
There seems to be some frivolous use of the word "blame" vs. the word "responsibility".

Both pilots had the responsibility to safely conduct their flight, including a basic see and avoid obligation.

While the investigation isn't over and findings released, it doesn't seem like either pilot willfully or otherwise violated any rules.  That pretty much eliminates word games over "blame".  HOWEVER, it is likely that both pilots failed to see and avoid other traffic, which was BOTH of their obligation.

That tells me that there is a shared "responsibility" for the mishap.  And guess what - the dead guy might not be dead if he had taken his obligation more seriously and gone beyond the minimum required by the rules.  As a fast mover driver with extensive safety and mishap training myself, I can say that sometimes even in spite of the best traffic callouts, you just don't see the other aircraft.

So, we have 2 pilots.  One is dead and, if given a second chance, might take the trouble to contact ATC for flight following.  The other is alive and he probably deeply wishes he was "better" and could have gotten the SA on the Cessna in time to avoid the collision.  Blame?  Hah.  Both pilots probably could have been "better", especially in accomplishing tasks upon which their lives depend.  There's your responsibility and obligation, fully shared by both pilots.  Blame?  I wouldn't dare assign blame in this case especially since I haven't seen either the factual information or an investigation report.  But from an outside perspective from someone who has been there and seen nearly identical mishaps take place, on the face of it there appears to be a failure in a shared responsibility among all involved.

Armchair lawyers and people who don't know jack about real aviation can point their ignorant fingers and try to assign blame, and you can bet your butt that there are lawyers right now trying to come up with the right words to convince an uneducated court jury and audience that there is in fact "blame" to assign to a single party in the mishap. 

Regarding the US method of conducting separate safety and accident investigations for military aviation mishaps...  Those lawyers are the reason why safety investigation results aren't given to lawyers, because they twist things so badly askew that no pilot with any sense at all would ever cooperate with a safety investigator if they knew the lawyers would get a chance to mis-represent their testimony in court.  In Europe, the pilot is assumed guilty and the lawyers just need to find any trivial mistake or act, even as dumb as skipping a healthy breakfast before flight, to pin the entire liability for the mishap on the pilot.  I'm glad I don't fly in Europe because that liability-focused investigative process is a bigger threat to me than anything else I've faced in 25 years of military flying.  The Iraqis might have loved to shoot me down when I was flying over their country, but they weren't trying to ruin my family too. 

Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9418
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2015, 09:49:49 AM »
So, we have 2 pilots.  One is dead and, if given a second chance, might take the trouble to contact ATC for flight following.  The other is alive and he probably deeply wishes he was "better" and could have gotten the SA on the Cessna in time to avoid the collision. 


For all your dislike of the word "blame," you seem to be blaming the Cessna pilot.  You might read the NTSB report.  The Cessna was climbing out after takeoff.  It is unlikely that he would have been able to ask for, and receive, flight following before the collision occurred (three minutes after the Cessna lifted off).  The 16 pilot, by contrast, was under ATC control and was given a traffic warning three times. 

I'm wondering why ATC brought the F16 down to pattern altitude so far out.  Is that your experience?

- oldman

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6864
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2015, 11:09:01 AM »
Is there a graphic showing the flight paths of the 2 a/c?

Offline Puma44

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6757
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2015, 11:46:14 AM »
It would be desirable if he had but it might not have changed anything either. Point is that it is known that GA traffic can fly in uncontrolled air space without radio or transponder so ATC and fighter pilots must be prepared for it and have a plan to handle it if they are flying in the area.
But  if this is a busy area with both fighters and GA traffic it should not be uncontrolled airspace.
There can be consequences for "non-participation", and the Cessna pilot and his passenger are a demonstration of them.  Radio contact with a radar controller can, in some cases be made on the ground.  This "participation" is, in essence, free life insurance.  There are ALWAYS numerous threats to safely anytime a pilot takes to the air.  It is foolish not take advantage of every available resource.



All gave some, Some gave all

Offline Zimme83

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3073
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2015, 12:19:21 PM »
I have never heard of a pilot being charged for an accident in Sweden. And as far as i know its a part of Europe. Havent heard of any case were insurance companies take legal action against a pilot  either. So no - its not the norm to hang the pilot.

In this particular case the problem is that a F-16 is too fast, its not realistic to rely on the pilots to spot each other and then evade, they dont have enough time. The cessna on a climbout also have a very limited maneuver capability and a very obstructed view, nose and wings will cover a lot. My question is why the F-16 could not pick up the cessna´s transponder?
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline Puma44

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6757
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2015, 12:37:13 PM »
Let go of trying to blame the F-16 pilot, his equipment, speed, etc and trying to analyze something you have no background or experience in.  This was a tragic ACCIDENT.  The Cessna pilot was most likely familiar with the airspace and type of aircraft typically encountered in it.  Now, why he chose not to "participate" with the ATC controllers, no one will ever know.  But, that choice most likely got him and his passenger killed when it could have very easily gone the other way. 

Any competent, responsible pilot will acknowledge that the highest level of safety is obtained by taking advantage of all available resources, internal and external. 




All gave some, Some gave all

Offline Zimme83

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3073
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2015, 12:45:52 PM »
Let go of trying to blame the F-16 pilot, his equipment, speed, etc and trying to analyze something you have no background or experience in.  This was a tragic ACCIDENT.  The Cessna pilot was most likely familiar with the airspace and type of aircraft typically encountered in it.  Now, why he chose not to "participate" with the ATC controllers, no one will ever know.  But, that choice most likely got him and his passenger killed when it could have very easily gone the other way. 

Any competent, responsible pilot will acknowledge that the highest level of safety is obtained by taking advantage of all available resources, internal and external.

But as said, 3 min after take off, thats very little time to leave the local frequency, call ATC and activate flight following. And btw it doesnt matter, the cessna pilot would still have very limited capabilities to spot and evade the F-16. U cannot trust the pilots eyes in this case, its works when both are flying at 90mph but not if the speed is 250+ knots.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline Serenity

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7313
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2015, 02:12:44 PM »
I have never heard of a pilot being charged for an accident in Sweden. And as far as i know its a part of Europe. Havent heard of any case were insurance companies take legal action against a pilot  either. So no - its not the norm to hang the pilot.

In this particular case the problem is that a F-16 is too fast, its not realistic to rely on the pilots to spot each other and then evade, they dont have enough time. The cessna on a climbout also have a very limited maneuver capability and a very obstructed view, nose and wings will cover a lot. My question is why the F-16 could not pick up the cessna´s transponder?

Zimme, what is your PERSONAL experience in aviation? Where do you bring your knowledge from? I ask, because you seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the process and the risks...

I fly an aircraft that has TCAS (Picking up those transponders). With how densely we pack aircraft in, I get at least 3-4 TCAS hits per flight. That's 3-4 times I get "TRAFFIC. TRAFFIC" coming through the headphones, I see a little diamond on a screen, with a two digit number. That's what you get from that transponder. A diamond and a two digit number giving a rough relative altitude. How fast, in a REAL sky, without icons, do you think you can convert that to an actual visual fix? With the delay in pinging, displaying, and the human analyzing that transponder info, you're often just a little LATE using TCAS. Of my 3-4 hits per flight, there is ALWAYS at least ONE contact that I never see. Now, because we're on course rules, we're both talking to ATC, and there are well-defined routes we take, we're still safely separated, but that's still a TCAS hit I cannot convert to a visual.

Offline Zimme83

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3073
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2015, 02:26:28 PM »
I own a cessna 150 and i have met fighters in uncontrolled airspace, were not able to spot anyone of them... (they however did see me cause their IFF/radar picks up the transponder, and ATC made sure that they had radio contact with all involved aircrafts..)



''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline pembquist

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1928
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2015, 03:18:43 PM »
Let go of blaming the 150 for the collision. You can ask for flight following, doesn't mean you'll get it. How many radios did the 150 have? I don't know how busy the little non tower airport the cessna took off from is but flight following isn't going to help you in the pattern but ctaf might, so when people say 'non participation' I think they are talking out their poo shooter. The collision happened 3 minutes after take off. Its possible for everybody to do their jobs as well as they can and still have an accident. The only thing I could see making a difference would be if the controller had told the f-16 to turn as opposed to waiting to see if the f-16 saw the Cessna. I am hazy on what the rules are for seperating this kind of traffic when it is vfr and the approachs are practice and no instrument flight plan is filed, maybe someone could clarify that, I am thinking it is technically the pilots responsibility to see and avoid in this case, which I have always thought is a little unrealistic. If you were going to change anything maybe the guy who can see everything, (the controller,) should just pretend that it is always imc.

So if everybody gets ADSB we'll all be safe from collision, right?
Pies not kicks.

Offline DaveBB

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1356
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2015, 06:32:37 PM »
Isn't there a speed limit of 250knts for aircraft under 10,000 feet?
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.

Offline Zimme83

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3073
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2015, 07:37:16 PM »
should be, im not sure if military aircraft has to follow that rule.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline Puma44

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6757
Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2015, 08:13:00 PM »
Isn't there a speed limit of 250knts for aircraft under 10,000 feet?
There is, in general.  Military aircraft fly speeds as specified in the flight manual.  Some are greater than 250 kts.



All gave some, Some gave all