Author Topic: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina  (Read 3971 times)

Offline eagl

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2015, 10:28:17 PM »

For all your dislike of the word "blame," you seem to be blaming the Cessna pilot.  You might read the NTSB report.  The Cessna was climbing out after takeoff.  It is unlikely that he would have been able to ask for, and receive, flight following before the collision occurred (three minutes after the Cessna lifted off).  The 16 pilot, by contrast, was under ATC control and was given a traffic warning three times. 

I'm wondering why ATC brought the F16 down to pattern altitude so far out.  Is that your experience?

- oldman

Nowhere am I blaming either pilot.  I am saying without a doubt in my mind that both pilots had a shared responsibility to see and avoid other traffic, and both pilots have an individual responsibility to conduct the flight in a safe manner.  While I don't know if the F-16 pilot could have done anything different, I do know that the Cessna pilot had multiple things he could have proactively done that would have enhanced his ability to meet his obligation to conduct the flight safely.  He could have contacted ATC for flight following.  He *might* have been able to adjust his routing to avoid high volume military traffic.  Maybe the viper driver could also have done other things as well, I dunno.  But it is an inescapable fact that at the time of the collision, one pilot was talking to ATC and attempting to deconflict, and the other pilot wasn't talking to anyone, trusting that dumb luck would get him to his destination alive.

Blame?  Nope.  But both pilots clearly failed in responsibilities that were both shared, and theirs alone as the pilot in command.  Being in compliance with the rules but dead is still dead, and one of the rules is that the PIC is solely responsible for not ending up dead.  As a PIC, I don't EVER attempt to transfer that responsibility to anyone else, whether its another pilot just because he has a radar, or a ground agency.  If I relied on the wx forecasters to do my job as PIC, I'd have either crashed or had to eject long ago because sometimes WX forecasters are horribly wrong, and I've been given more than one "everything's ok" forecast and then when I checked it myself, found that the forecaster gave me my briefing based on the previous day's weather because he forgot to hit the refresh button on his computer, and if I'd gone with his forecast I'd have arrived with crosswinds more than double the aircraft's allowable limits and all "perfectly legal" alternate airports also had crosswinds badly out of limits.  I'd have been legal by going with the wrong forecast, and I probably would have lost the aircraft and maybe died if that was good enough.  But I take my responsibilities as PIC very seriously and so I make SURE my flight will be conducted safely by doing everything I reasonably can to make sure I don't pass up opportunities to make it safer.  Like double-checking my wx briefing with free online resources.  Like contacting ATC when I don't have to.  Like not chasing clouds and pushing VFR cloud clearance limits when I'm in the vicinity of IFR traffic that might be busting right through those clouds with no hope of visually deconflicting with me.  Like researching my VFR flying routes to see if I'm crossing military low level routes or other high traffic volume areas.  When I have a radar that can interrogate and receive IFF codes, I actually use it as part of my crosscheck.  Like listening up on the radio for other aircraft getting assigned the same altitude as me (gotta be on freq in the first place!). 

Blame?  Naw.  But one guy is dead in part because while he was legal, he failed at his responsibilities as PIC in part because he failed to use resources available to him that could have prevented the mishap.  Same probably goes for the viper driver in terms of maybe using his radar "better" or picking a different route, but at least the viper driver was talking to ATC and making an attempt to deconflict.  You can't say that the Cessna pilot even tried.

You simply can't be that cavalier in attitude in the aviation world and expect to not die in some sort of mishap. 
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline eagl

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2015, 10:29:28 PM »
Isn't there a speed limit of 250knts for aircraft under 10,000 feet?

Most fighter types and the T-38 are waived up to 300 or higher, if I recall correctly.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Oldman731

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2015, 12:46:16 AM »
Blame?  Naw.  But one guy is dead in part because while he was legal, he failed at his responsibilities as PIC in part because he failed to use resources available to him that could have prevented the mishap.  Same probably goes for the viper driver in terms of maybe using his radar "better" or picking a different route, but at least the viper driver was talking to ATC and making an attempt to deconflict.  You can't say that the Cessna pilot even tried.


I'm still wondering why folks in this thread think the Cessna pilot could have arranged flight following - as well as received a traffic warning - in the three minutes he had to live after his plane parted company with the runway.  It takes that long just to announce your departure direction on CTAF, then to contact ATC, make the request, put in the squawk code, ident, and wait for the controller to announce radar contact.  By that time he was dead.

There's no question that this was an accident without a lot of blame to fling around.  That's the scary part.  But when ATC tells me to turn, I turn right away, and after this I'm going to make certain that I continue that practice.

- oldman

Offline Zimme83

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2015, 09:14:25 AM »

I'm still wondering why folks in this thread think the Cessna pilot could have arranged flight following - as well as received a traffic warning - in the three minutes he had to live after his plane parted company with the runway.  It takes that long just to announce your departure direction on CTAF, then to contact ATC, make the request, put in the squawk code, ident, and wait for the controller to announce radar contact.  By that time he was dead.

There's no question that this was an accident without a lot of blame to fling around.  That's the scary part.  But when ATC tells me to turn, I turn right away, and after this I'm going to make certain that I continue that practice.

- oldman

3 min after take off it should be expected that the cessna was still on the frequency of the departing airport. It takes atleast 5 min to climb out from an airport, only after that u go over to aerial control and activate Flight following. 

To me it looks like it was a chain of events (like most of the time) that lead to the accident, the F-16 pilot is only the last link in that chain. He could have act different when warned about the Cessna yes but he was prob not the one that made the desicion to fly so close to the airport. A F-16 on an IFR approach should not be vectored so close to another airport at that altitude.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline DaveBB

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2015, 09:05:05 PM »
Here is some information from F-16.net

Quote
Well the speed limit below 10,000' in the US is 250 knots (288mph) and the crash occurred at around 1,500'. The Cessna pilot wasn't communicating with ATC nor was he required too. He was squawking 1200 so his transponder was showing up on radar and this is perfectly legit, though I myself prefer to request Flight Following more often than not so that ATC is actively looking out for traffic and vectoring me if need be but at the very least telling me where to look to see it. It's especially useful down here where I fly from Daytona Beach because of the sheer number of general aviation aircraft around, a large portion of them student pilots in training. That being said the ATC did give the F-16 pilot information on the Cessna and asked him to do a 180 if he didn't 'see' the traffic, which the fighter driver did but not as quick as some naysayers would like. He was on a heading of 260 for the airport and had turned more southerly towards a heading of 215 by the time of the accident. Perhaps if the 16 pilot was told to climb instead of U-turn it would have been a better call, but who knows.

Anyhow to me it was nobody's fault but an unfortunate scenario. The Cessna pilot was under 'see and avoid' VFR conditions but you'd be surprised what you can't see sometimes, and the F-16 pilot was on an IFR flight plan under positive ATC control and when he couldn't spot the civilian aircraft he did initiate a turn around as instructed but still the planes collided.
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.

Offline zxrex

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2015, 04:25:05 PM »
From reading the prelim report I'm wondering if the viper pilot had initiated the turn when directed and the Cessna unfortunately turned at the same time.  The controller didn't catch it right away because of the time it takes for his radar to update.  If put in the same position from now on I'm going up(or down).  Most of what I fly has the latest TCAS with RA advisories and I was amazed at the number of aircraft around that I wasn't aware of while flying non TCAS equipped aircraft.

Offline Grayeagle

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Re: F-16 ace pilots a Cessna 150 in south carolina
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2015, 04:54:49 PM »
Does the F-16 pilot get to paint a Cessna kill flag on his next Viper? (too soon?)

-just askin :)

(yea I am prolly goin to hell for that one)

-GE
'The better I shoot ..the less I have to manuever'
-GE