Sick and tired

[PJ_Godzilla]

That's been my experience, Skyyr. Indeed, it's pretty easy to pwn the K-4 from a XVI - if he deigns to try to dogfight.

However, for those other cases... I'll be looking for JB.

This is all about learning for me, regardless.

I wonder where old Grizz is these days?

[Changeup]

Anyone who's getting a Spit 16 outmaneuvered by a G-14, let alone an A5, sucks. Period.

The Spitfire 16 should and will win every time when flown by a competent pilot.

Although I agree, most people here never fought Grizz in his prime in the DA and wouldn't be particularly versed in his capability.  However, those that had would have no issue agreeing with my assessment.  Many a good 16 pilot lost their toon lives with the same opinion as you.

[Changeup]

I wonder where old Grizz is these days?

He's around...

[Skyyr]

Although I agree, most people here never fought Grizz in his prime in the DA and wouldn't be particularly versed in his capability.  However, those that had would have no issue agreeing with my assessment.  Many a good 16 pilot lost their toon lives with the same opinion as you.

Raw aircraft capability + a fully competent pilot > individual skill. Same planes? Sure, individual skill matters much more; but, different planes where one has a clear advantage? It doesn't matter how good a pilot is if the other guy only flies to the strengths of his dominant aircraft.

Now, you might be impressed with someone flying an A5 against other guys who don't know how to fight it, but anyone who knows anything about energy fighting with a Spit 16 will simply dominate the A5. I don't care who you are, you simply cannot make up for the lack of aircraft performance with "individual skill" when the other guy is flying textbook energy tactics with a plane that is also more maneuverable. Your "skill" can't do anything about me climbing above you and forcing you to turn and bleed E all of the way to deck. You might care to disagree and volunteer others to duel for you, but I'd remind you to be careful - remember how this ended the last time you talked up someone's skills (lol).

[Latrobe]

Raw aircraft capability + a fully competent pilot < individual skill.

Fixed 

[Changeup]

Raw aircraft capability + a fully competent pilot > individual skill. Same planes? Sure, individual skill matters much more; but, different planes where one has a clear advantage? It doesn't matter how good a pilot is if the other guy only flies to the strengths of his dominant aircraft.

Now, you might be impressed with someone flying an A5 against other guys who don't know how to fight it, but anyone who knows anything about energy fighting with a Spit 16 will simply dominate it. I don't care who you are, you simply cannot make up for the lack of aircraft performance with "individual skill." Your "skill" can't do anything about me climbing above you and forcing you to turn and bleed E all of the way to deck. You might care to disagree and volunteer others to duel for you, but I'd remind you to be careful - remember how this ended the last time you talked up someone's skills (lol).

You bring up skill like it matters lol.  It doesn't truth is, having been beaten by both of you, I'm in a position to make a judgement.  You simply are not.  I can state emphatically after having fought you both you aren't as good as Grizz was in his prime.  I beat you twice. I've never beat him and I was flying about 100 hours a month more than I was flying you beat me. 

You can claim victories on me all you like dood but that doesn't change the fact that not one person here that had fought both you and Grizz in the DA would say your best would beat his best.  Not one chance.  Your opinion of my skills, good or bad, has no bearing on it.  It is a fabulous straw man though.  You are good at that.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Raw aircraft capability + a fully competent pilot > individual skill. Same planes? Sure, individual skill matters much more; but, different planes where one has a clear advantage? It doesn't matter how good a pilot is if the other guy only flies to the strengths of his dominant aircraft.

Right, but, as you well acknowledge, the situation at merge MATTERS. Indeed, as often as not, I encounter Mr. Spitty when he's got an alt disadvantage. IF I could hit him on an early pass, THEN his advantage would be nicely nullified by the resultant damage.

The ability to reliably hit the moving target from the moving platform was / is where I suspect Grizz excelled, though I'm also certain he was no ACM slouch, having seen him in his K-4 surrounded by reds on at least a couple of occasions. As Mannock said (IIRC), "fancy flying never killed anyone".

Co-e (potential and kinetic accounted for), "fully competent" - of course you're right, subject to an objective definition of the term in quotes - the a/c with an overriding advantage will win.

[Skyyr]

You bring up skill like it matters lol.  It doesn't truth is, having been beaten by both of you, I'm in a position to make a judgement.  You simply are not.  I can state emphatically after having fought you both you aren't as good as Grizz was in his prime.  I beat you twice. I've never beat him and I was flying about 100 hours a month more than I was flying you beat me. 

You can claim victories on me all you like dood but that doesn't change the fact that not one person here that had fought both you and Grizz in the DA would say your best would beat his best.  Not one chance.  Your opinion of my skills, good or bad, has no bearing on it.  It is a fabulous straw man though.  You are good at that.

There was no strawman whatsoever. I'll take Grizz in his A5 vs my 16 all day long. However, even after winning, you'd claim he "wasn't in his prime." Seeing as you've stated his other past performances weren't in his prime either (i.e. when he's returned in the past and been shot down), you're committing an argument from ignorance fallacy. It can't be proven or disproven, therefore it doesn't pass the litmus test as a logical argument.

You arguing that an A5 can beat a Spit 16 when the Spit 16 is roughly equal in airspeed, but also climbs better, turns better, and accelerates better is in contradiction of basic BFM and ACM. But hey, if Grizz wants to DA the above scenario, I'm game.

Lata', 5'oclock.

[Dragon Tamer]

Fixed 

Spoken like a true FPH. 

Nuff said.

[Changeup]

There was no strawman whatsoever. I'll take Grizz in a Spit 16 vs A5 all day long. However, even after winning, you'd claim it "wasn't in his prime," ergo an argument from ignorance fallacy.

You arguing that an A5 can beat a Spit 16 when the Spit 16 is roughly equal in airspeed, but also climbs better, turns better, and accelerates better is in contradiction of basic BFM and ACM.

But hey, if Grizz wants to DA the above scenario, I'm game.

Lata', 5'oclock.

You're learning and that's a good thing lol.  Keep up the good work. 

[Latrobe]

There was no strawman whatsoever. I'll take Grizz in a Spit 16 vs A5 all day long.

of course you'd pick the far superior fighter to fly. Try fighting Grizz in his prime same plane, not with an advantage. 

[Dragon Tamer]

Rule 16 has been invoked.

[Skyyr]

Right, but, as you well acknowledge, the situation at merge MATTERS.

It's typically assumed when speaking of a 1 on 1 engagement (especially when in the context of the DA) that the altitudes are the same at the merge, with both aircraft at cruise (i.e. no climbing above the merge alt and then diving to meet the merge alt).

If you need an alt advantage (and therefore an energy advantage) to beat someone in a "lesser plane," all you're doing is solidifying the fact that it can't win from a co-E engagement and is, in fact, inferior 1v1.

[Someguy63]

Honestly I don't think Grizz still needs to be in his prime to beat anyone that still plays.

[Changeup]

of course you'd pick the far superior fighter to fly. Try fighting Grizz in his prime same plane, not with an advantage. 

Trobe,

He never said it.  Check my original post to Godzilla. Skyyr simply wanted to chime in on plane flight envelopes and spout his knowledge.  I simply reminded him that Grizz was an exception to his flight envelope claims.  he didn't like it so he got all toontough. Lol.