Some observations

[Mano]

Today I drove an M-8 into the water. As long as I stay in shallow water it continues at 62 mph. If I go a little deeper, say three feet deep, I continue at 62 mph. I would expect it to slow down to maybe 40 mph. . I know it is still alpha and it really does look great.

I went pretty deep and I came to a stop. . I was under water. That is cool.

I drove an M-18 out to the beach and same results but I used F3 to observe outside view. When  I went below the water I could not get back to the F1 view. I want to see what's down there. 

And I have a question:  Will a map maker be able to put berms or other natural barriers at Gv spawns so the gv' can up even though it is camped? I have not made a terrain yet. I just may give it a try if the learning curve is not too steep.


One more observation. For a GV'er there is absolutely no place to hide. It will be way easier to bomb Gv's than AH2. I did not see any dense clump of trees, barns or anywhere else to hide. So far I have only tried one terrain. I guess I need to try all the alpha arenas.

 

[bustr]

I'm building an offline gunnery practice terrain. Tank target ranges, 2 tanker Hogan's Alley, 17lb and 88mm ranges. Wirbel, osti, M16, 37mm mesa so planes fly over your position at realistic field attack altitudes. CV's setup for ship to ship, shore to ship, PT, PT bombers, fighter and bomber. I even have a CV group set doing those squirrely turns so aspiring CV killers can practice timing the turns with their bombers. 

As this screen capture will show, can you find the other 39 tanks hiding in all those trees? When you spawn your tank in, you don't see many of them until you are inside of 800 to them. You just need trees.

[Mano]

I will give that a try bustr. I will set up lots of drones and fly around. I flew a P-51
Over a v base. Everything seemed much sharper than AH2.

[Easyscor]

As this screen capture will show, can you find the other 39 tanks hiding in all those trees? When you spawn your tank in, you don't see many of them until you are inside of 800 to them. You just need trees.

(Image removed from quote.)

Trees?
Do you mean something like one of these screen shots?

[bustr]

The shadows turn tanks invisible under the trees until you get on top of them.

[Greebo]

I also tested vehicles driving into water with the idea of creating shallow fording places across rivers in my MA terrains. Vehicles would have to negotiate the ford in order to reach an objective thereby creating a choke point away from the SP. However I found that all vehicles would continue to work even underwater until they hit about 20-30 feet depth when they would hit a virtual brick wall and roll over. When I asked HT about it he said GVs in water was one of the things that wasn't finished yet.

[Mano]

Thanks bustr and Greebo. Water and the reaction with GV's will add allot to the ground game.

 

 

[Mano]

I also tested vehicles driving into water with the idea of creating shallow fording places across rivers in my MA terrains. Vehicles would have to negotiate the ford in order to reach an objective thereby creating a choke point away from the SP. However I found that all vehicles would continue to work even underwater until they hit about 20-30 feet depth when they would hit a virtual brick wall and roll over. When I asked HT about it he said GVs in water was one of the things that wasn't finished yet.

Greebo, do you know if we will be able to blow up bridges?  They would make good choke points for GV battles. Hangars and Manned guns stay sown for 15 minutes so that would be a good number for how long a bridge stays down. Just thinking ahead.

<S>

[Greebo]

While there are bridges in the various towns, tank town and strats I haven't tested them to see if they can be destroyed. As GVs can currently just bypass these bridges by fording the streams its a moot point until GV-water interaction is sorted out.

As far as I know there is not a separate bridge object that HTC will allow to be used independently in an MA terrain (I wish there was). In any other sort of terrain the terrain designer can set a bridge or any object's hardness properties. I'm not sure I'd want my choke points to be destroyable anyway.

I am sort of hoping the yet to be completed AH3 roads and railways will generate their own bridges whenever they cross water, or the rivers will place bridges crossing them every mile or so, as I could make use of that.

[Easyscor]

Bridges, when in multiples of two or three, create choke points to channel the fight without killing the fight.
Destroyable bridges kill game play by driving players to other parts of the arena!

To paraphrase a past player, do you really want to fight shacks instead of other players?

[10thmd]

Don't let the 49'ers answer that question they will pick the poor Shack every time.

[Chilli]

Easycor,

One might also see destruction of bridges as player created choke holes that encourage the fight / defense.  Especially, if they can be rebuilt and provide a fair fight.  Besides, if you think destroyable bridges kill game play, then what do you think of dr7? 

Actually, much would need to be changed with the ground vehicle game play for me personally to think it to be something I would do as a pass time without much reward.  Others seem to enjoy it just fine, it is just not my cup of tea.  So, killing shacks and then tallying up perks from stranded pedestrians, is quite okay with me. 

[Easyscor]

Don't let the 49'ers answer that question they will pick the poor Shack every time.

[Easyscor]

One might also see destruction of bridges as player created choke holes that encourage the fight / defense.  Especially, if they can be rebuilt and provide a fair fight.  Besides, if you think destroyable bridges kill game play, then what do you think of dr7?

I think he's deadly.
I also think that even if he initially agrees with you, I can convince him otherwise in less then five minutes.

Here's the MA scenario: Two vehicle bases and two groups of players are on opposite sides of a river with two bridges the only way across.
Group #1 is wishing to continue a tank battle that's been going on for awhile and has asked flying countrymen to refrain from killing the enemy tanks on the other side of the river. Much like asking bomber guys not to kill a CV.
Group 2 is a squad that wants to kill the fight here and force their countrymen as well as Group 1 to move somewhere else. They blow up both bridges and leave, knowing it will be 15 minutes before their v-base will be "threatened" again.

If you're in Group 1, or the countrymen of Group2 in GVs, are you really going to wait 15 minutes to see if the guys in Group 2 blow up the bridges again? Will you wait 5 minutes, or two minutes?

AH is intended to be an action game. If you extend this scenario across an entire terrain, it's clear to me that destructible bridges would not be used as choke point for GV battles but as targets for Jabo sorties instead. You can still "defend" them in GVs or Jabos, but you'll need to blow up the enemy tanks on the path between the two v-bases instead of killing the shacks and leaving.

Scenario #2, the SEA: The Nieman Scenario had destructible bridges that stayed down for the duration of the frame. They were destroyed in the first two or three minutes of each frame stopping all GV advance and killing any chance for serious GV battles.
The Karelia Scenario had a couple of destructible bridges that would stay down for 15 minutes. A swarm of jabo came in and destroyed the bridges. Except for a single squad of GVs, most of the defenders left, afterall, the frame lasts no more then 3 hours. At about 13 minutes, the attackers showed up with an overwhelming combined attack force to kill the remaining defender. The bridges started popping up as the one sided slaughter ended. The defenders were simple kills to be added to the kill point score as the attackers rolled over the nearby GV base.
You can focus on the lesson of timing and defense, but the GV defenders who sat in front of their screens for 15 minutes without action lost all enthusiasm for defending any bridge.

Scenario #3, the AvA: The AvA has several terrains setup specifically for Tank battles. One, avasml, has a town straddling a river with v-bases ~1.5 miles behind the town on each side of the river, and of course three indestructible bridges. The terrain has been used frequently for a popular tank battle setup called Battle of Berlin by Jaeger1 (captain1ma on the bbs). Unless I'm mistaken, Dr7 has participated in several AvA Tank Nights.




btw, none of the bridges available in either the new TE or OE come as singles. They're unusable for river crossing. I wish it weren't so and I requested one but we'll have to wait and see.

[Mano]

You make good points Easyscor. <S>
It really depends how the choke point is set up. I used to play Armored Assault. There was a bridge between field 42 and 48. When the bridge went down the resulting tank fight sometimes lasted for hours. Tanks would set up on both sides and prevent anyone from getting close to THAT bridge. Then when the bridge came back up, both countries tried to get their tanks accross the river. The tank fights on the bridge were an absolute blast. Their system for base capture was similar, knock down the guns and buildings, then troop it. You had to get troops over that bridge. The troops needed escorts too. 

Also, tanks had to be careful going over the bridge. You could get stuck or slide off if you did not keep the tracks on the wood. Imagine crossing that bridge, shooting enemy tanks, and watching where you are going. .

I see bridges as having the potential for allot of fun. That is what AH is all about.