Author Topic: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!  (Read 64070 times)

Offline oakranger

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #105 on: April 24, 2016, 12:24:56 PM »
They survived the crash, but the farmer had just had his roof re-tiled so he shot them both.  :old:

 :rofl

Well said.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #106 on: April 24, 2016, 03:58:30 PM »
I think of the 109 and Spitfire as being polar opposites which occasionally touch the same point on the performance tables.

In terms of design philosophy yes, they are very different. Makes the 109 design that much more impressive since it achieved close parity with the Spitfire despite being compromised by design considerations other than performance.


Not having flown a real 109 of Spit14, in-game the K-4 is a far superior stall fighter, imho.

Stall fighter yes, because of the flaps. The Spit XVI is the better E-fighter though with excellent E-retention, high speed control authority and turbolasers.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #107 on: April 24, 2016, 10:33:43 PM »
In terms of design philosophy yes, they are very different. Makes the 109 design that much more impressive since it achieved close parity with the Spitfire despite being compromised by design considerations other than performance.

I don’t follow your last sentence. (Real-world) I think the Spitfire had a better form and a slightly better engine but the 109 is structurally more advanced with a superior supercharging solution.


Stall fighter yes, because of the flaps. The Spit XVI is the better E-fighter though with excellent E-retention, high speed control authority and turbolasers.

(In-game only) yes and the slats and most especially the nose-high stability. Park a K-4 on its arse in the vert , pull off the power and let go of the stick and it’ll self-correct. In the XIV you’ve got some fancy pilot stuff to do and about 3,000 feet to burn to get out of that flat spin, often inverted. I feel sure the AH Spit XIV has a CofG / CofP fault.

I like the 30-mm better than Hispanos but I've noticed it's divisive for players.

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Offline Serenity

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #108 on: April 25, 2016, 01:30:19 PM »
(In-game only) yes and the slats and most especially the nose-high stability. Park a K-4 on its arse in the vert , pull off the power and let go of the stick and it’ll self-correct. In the XIV you’ve got some fancy pilot stuff to do and about 3,000 feet to burn to get out of that flat spin, often inverted. I feel sure the AH Spit XIV has a CofG / CofP fault.

I like the 30-mm better than Hispanos but I've noticed it's divisive for players.

Have you tried the DCS Bf-109? I tend to put a little more faith in their flight model, and aircraft characteristics, simply because everyone I know who has flown the actual aircraft they model has given rave reviews about how accurate it is.

In Aces High, I can make the Bf-109 dance pretty handily. In DCS, which seems to do a MUCH better job of modeling things like torque, and doesn't flatten things out, I can barely take off in the K-4, and landings are a prayer at best...

Offline GScholz

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #109 on: April 27, 2016, 05:24:23 AM »
I don’t follow your last sentence. (Real-world) I think the Spitfire had a better form and a slightly better engine but the 109 is structurally more advanced with a superior supercharging solution.

I mean Willy didn't design the best plane he could have designed for performance only. He made compromises for production and serviceability. He was often criticized by his competitors, Heinkel in particular, for making a "simple" and aerodynamically inferior design. The Heinkel 112 was in fact favored by the Luftwaffe, but Willy knew that there was more to a military aircraft than performance. He also understood politics.

If the Luftwaffe had gotten its way instead of the politicians the Battle of Britain would have been a battle between two remarkably similar looking fighters.

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Offline LCADolby

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #110 on: April 27, 2016, 05:38:45 AM »
Willi wasn't good at politics  :old: bf not Me ;)
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #111 on: April 27, 2016, 06:06:17 AM »
Willy Messerschmitt was the chief designer and engineer at Bayerische Flugzeugwerke (Bf). Willy's political abilities and help from his friend Hugo Junkers, helped him take control of the company in 1938 and reconstituted it as Messerschmitt AG, with Willy as chairman and managing director. Willy managed to get his design into the 1935 fighter competition and win it despite being a hated enemy of Erhard Milch. The German field marshal who oversaw the development of the Luftwaffe as part of the re-armament of Nazi Germany, and who only answered to Göring and Hitler himself. If not for Milch's interference Willy would have had his name on the company letter head in 1933.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline nrshida

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #112 on: April 27, 2016, 07:28:37 AM »
I mean Willy didn't design the best plane he could have designed for performance only. He made compromises for production and serviceability. He was often criticized by his competitors, Heinkel in particular, for making a "simple" and aerodynamically inferior design. The Heinkel 112 was in fact favored by the Luftwaffe, but Willy knew that there was more to a military aircraft than performance. He also understood politics.

Oh I see your perspective. I didn't mean to imply poor English. Your English is extremely good, better than most Texan's in fact  :rofl

Well, let’s be honest, Willy cheated on the design brief by violating one of the stipulations which allowed his design to match or exceed the others which the competition could not. Fully working prototype helped a lot given the time pressures. Good trick though, if you can get your client to swallow it. I think Willy was an excellent designer, forward thinking, good anticipation of changing environments and imaginative solutions. Yes very well disposed to mass production, unlike the Spitfire, especially the wings. I read somewhere at one point there were countless Spitfire fusalges waiting for their wings to be built.

Just from a purely original design perspective though I think the de Havilland Mosquito trumps both the 109 and Spitfire. A genius proposition, almost uniquely remarkable in a lot of ways. The Hornet's construction was even more advanced along the same concept.


Have you tried the DCS Bf-109? I tend to put a little more faith in their flight model, and aircraft characteristics, simply because everyone I know who has flown the actual aircraft they model has given rave reviews about how accurate it is.

In Aces High, I can make the Bf-109 dance pretty handily. In DCS, which seems to do a MUCH better job of modeling things like torque, and doesn't flatten things out, I can barely take off in the K-4, and landings are a prayer at best...

No buddy sorry. I've only played AH. Have flown a glider and an R-22 and seem to have an affinity to vehicular control in general but it's just semi-informed instinct about the Spit14. You're a real pilot aren't you? What is your opinion of the AH Spit14? Dubious longitudinal stability explainable by dodgy weight distribution? I know the Ta-152 guys discuss that reason for a similar departure.


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Offline nrshida

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #113 on: April 27, 2016, 07:36:23 AM »
This was one of my finest 30-mm shots when I mucked around with the G-14 many years ago:-

https://youtu.be/x2yFy8-gfL0?t=25

That naughty Mr. Joach1m never even gave me a mention in the credits  :old:

Can catastrophically miss with Hispanos though. Too much lead I expect, the Ho-5 plops it's pellets out a bit slower.

 

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Offline LCADolby

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #114 on: April 27, 2016, 10:03:04 AM »

That naughty Mr. Joach1m never even gave me a mention in the credits  :old:

Emil - ######

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Offline Serenity

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #115 on: April 27, 2016, 01:08:10 PM »

Well, let’s be honest, Willy cheated on the design brief by violating one of the stipulations which allowed his design to match or exceed the others which the competition could not.


What did he cheat on the design? I'm not familiar with it and genuinely very curious as a 109 lover.


No buddy sorry. I've only played AH. Have flown a glider and an R-22 and seem to have an affinity to vehicular control in general but it's just semi-informed instinct about the Spit14. You're a real pilot aren't you? What is your opinion of the AH Spit14? Dubious longitudinal stability explainable by dodgy weight distribution? I know the Ta-152 guys discuss that reason for a similar departure.

That's a tough question. Honestly, I've not spent much time in the Spit14, and more importantly, I've never flown a plane as far beyond it's envelope in real life as we routinely do here lol. Not so much out of my own fear (That ejection seat is VERY comforting lol) but more because in all but 3 hours of high-performance flight so far, I've had an IP in the back grading me on safety lol.

Offline nrshida

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #116 on: April 27, 2016, 02:00:45 PM »
That's a tough question. Honestly, I've not spent much time in the Spit14, and more importantly, I've never flown a plane as far beyond it's envelope in real life as we routinely do here lol. Not so much out of my own fear (That ejection seat is VERY comforting lol) but more because in all but 3 hours of high-performance flight so far, I've had an IP in the back grading me on safety lol.

Fun police!  :furious


What did he cheat on the design? I'm not familiar with it and genuinely very curious as a 109 lover.


Well he exceeded the specified wing loading. But since manoeuvrability came lowest on the list of priorities, it was a smart approach. Especially since he could already demonstrate everything else working. The other entrants needed revisions, I think is the kind way to put it. Also like GScholz said it was obviously production-friendly. I think it was the right choice at the time. Old Willy had anticipated energy fighting it looks like.


Emil - ######



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Offline Serenity

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #117 on: April 27, 2016, 07:20:03 PM »
Fun police!  :furious[/img]

That's soon to change. Now that I'm in intermediate jet, on both of my flights so far, when I've completed my necessary training maneuvers, the IP has taken over, followed immediately by the words "Hang on!"

It's funny what happens when you stop have Helo and P-3 guys for instructors :D

Offline Delirium

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #118 on: April 27, 2016, 09:14:49 PM »
Probably my favorite photo of all time.

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Offline nrshida

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Re: Post your RL WWII Aircraft!
« Reply #119 on: April 28, 2016, 02:23:09 AM »


For no more rational reason than its quirkiness, design and the bravery of those who fought in it. Excellent wishlist thread over here with a wealth of pictures and info:-

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,313538.0.html
"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"
The GFC