Author Topic: Assistance with nose to tail turns  (Read 1829 times)

Offline Vudak

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Assistance with nose to tail turns
« on: February 15, 2016, 11:07:11 AM »
Would anyone be willing to assist me in getting more comfortable with nose to tail fighting? I hate flying this way and so I rarely practice it and am not good at it, causing me to attempt to reset fights into nose to nose with mixed results. I'd like to have the confidence to do both.

I'd particularly like to take up F4U-1A's with one pilot using full flaps and the other using 2 notches so that I can get a feel for turn radius advantage vs. Turn rate advantage and at what point in a chase it is safe/advisable to convert to one or the other. I think I understand the theory and have read some threads on the subject but haven't had much chance to put it into practice.

I don't think I can quickly practice this anywhere else without causing dueling partners to log in boredom :)

I have an eight month old so times can be up in the air, but weeknights between 8 and 10pm EST generally work best for me.

I know it's not the most glamorous request, but I'd appreciate the help!
Vudak
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2016, 02:04:45 PM »
I don't speak pilot well....this is just a flat turn fight pretty much? If so then I'm all for some practice in this fight because like you said I too normally just reset the fight trying to go rolling scissors(Which is probably my strongest area). I'll hit you up next time I see you on.

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Offline Vudak

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2016, 02:07:03 PM »
Yeah pretty much exactly. I hate fighting this way but sometimes fights devolve to one on the deck and I'd like to practice them so I don't always have to be the guy giving up the first crossing shot to try and reverse.
Vudak
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2016, 02:14:13 PM »
Yeah pretty much exactly. I hate fighting this way but sometimes fights devolve to one on the deck and I'd like to practice them so I don't always have to be the guy giving up the first crossing shot to try and reverse.
I have the exact same problem.
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2016, 03:39:32 PM »
When I see a post or someone asks me a question like your opening post, Vudak, the first thing that comes to mind is understanding how a "nose-to-tail" situation is actually a 2 circle fight ( your plane's flight circle vs your opponent's plane flight circle ) being offset, to gain an angles advantage instead of trying to follow your opponet's flight circle exactly and trying to gain angles.....unless you use the high yoyo/low yoyo in the nose to tail chase, to gain an angular advantage

iirc, nose to tail is acknowledged as a 1 circle fight, but I am refering to geometery, offset circles etc....

in the initial setup you have asked to try with,

F4U-1A flying with full flaps out verses the other F4U-1A flying with only 2 notches deployed ( <--- the F4U-1A's best obtainable sustained turn is reached using 2 notches of flaps, btw )

I would say that the F4U-1A with 2 notches, would more times than not beat the F4U-1A with all flaps depolyed, simply because the all flaps depolyed hog would be burning all his Energy... in theory anyway

all the F4U series planes outside of the F4U-1 obtain their best sustained turn rate with 2 notches of flaps deployed in AH....to where the F4U-1 maintains a constant sustained turn rate through out .... from 1 notch of flaps deployed to all flaps deployed...



hope this helps  ..... and if you cannot find or schedule any takers to help you with this..... shoot me a PM, I will find time to meet you and work with you....

TC
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 03:41:15 PM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Vudak

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2016, 05:06:18 PM »
Thanks, TC. 

I think I understand the basic concept but correct me if I'm wrong - you're basically saying you've got one aircraft making a tighter circle, the other one making a larger circle, but instead of trying to match each other's circle, you fly your own one but offset enough so that they intersect at a point where you can kill them?

If I'm following you then I think I understand it in theory, but putting it into practice is difficult for me because there is a chance, initially at least, of cutting inside and pulling lead with full flaps but like you said, at the cost of energy.  It's kind of a "leap of faith" for me to not try and cut inside on the turn and to perceptually visualize them pulling away, at least initially.  I'm also not really sure how to position my aircraft initially to set up the offset...

I think this is something I really need stick time to see, film, study.  I kind of figure with my style if I had the energy I would probably do as you said and use a high yoyo/low yoyo rather than commit to the flat turn on the deck, but sometimes you just don't have enough energy to get as high as you need to so as to cut into the turn.  Getting into a flat turn and going round and round is totally foreign to me though on occasion I do get in these situations and I start losing ground either in actuality or perhaps that's just my perception, so I wind up trying to reverse it, which sometimes works but can be pretty dicey when you're at such a speed that you're stuck in a flat turn in the first place.  Certainly the longer I wait to reverse the worse my position tends to become.

I definitely will throw ya a PM if I see you on.  Junky, if you're having the same issue them maybe working on this together with TC or another trainer would work out because then we could either sit in each others planes or even better use CM eye mode (that's available in the TA, right?) while being on channel and observing.
Vudak
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Offline SIK1

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2016, 06:41:15 PM »
Vudak, you might want to talk to Kingpin. He just went through an investigation of fighting in the Lufbery. You can see the thread he started here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,376003.0.html

If I can help at all let me know.

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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2016, 06:43:59 PM »
Nice, Sik!  I had forgotten about that thread..... lot of good stuff in it......

:aok

TC
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline hgtonyvi

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2016, 09:01:38 PM »
Vudak I somewhat agree with what TC. If you do see me online just shoot me a PM. I'm better explaining things voice than typing it hear.

Offline Kingpin

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2016, 02:16:14 PM »
What time zone are you in Vudak? If we can work it out time-wise, I'd be happy to spend some time with you on this.  It's one of those seemingly boring subjects to explore, but I found it kind of fun.

I just did some extensive investigation into Lufbery fighting in order to really wrap my brain around it, because I felt there are some rather counter-intuitive things to it.  SIK1 and I spent a couple hours in the TA doing this in the F4U-1A in particular, playing with different notch settings and different geometry (highly offset turn circles, etc.).

Just two weeks ago I introduced someone to "turn rate fighting" who had tended to drop as many flaps as possible and chop throttle to turn as hard as he could in the Pony-D.  He and I did some duels for fun and he asked how I was always beating him around the circle once our fights went into the Lufbery.  I walked him through the concepts of turn rate vs. turn radius and did some Lufbery fights with him and he really grasped the concept.  He has since PM'd me several times in game to thank me for kills he is landing in the MA by fighting in a way he wasn't able to do before.

The cool thing about the Lufbery is that if you are better at it (or simply have the turn rate advantage) and you can force an opponent into that type of fight, it is almost a "no lose" situation, because (as you may have experienced) more often than not he who tries to exit the Lufbery gets shot. Of course this is provided you are patient and have the uninterrupted time to let it play out, which isn't always the case in the MA, so above par SA and knowing when it is safer to stay out of the Lufbery fight is important also.

That said, it's an important tool to have in the tool-box (or club in the bag, if you like golf analogies!) so you can use it when it's the right situation.

Feel free to PM me or reply here to set up a time to work on this.

<S>
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« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 02:24:08 PM by Kingpin »
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline Vudak

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2016, 02:25:18 PM »
Hi Kingpin, I'm in Connecticut (EST) and generally weeknights between 8 and 10pm work well for me. Do you have any capacity in the next week or two? Thanks!
Vudak
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Offline Kingpin

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2016, 02:39:17 PM »
Hi Kingpin, I'm in Connecticut (EST) and generally weeknights between 8 and 10pm work well for me. Do you have any capacity in the next week or two? Thanks!

I am West Coast (California) so I could work with you starting around 8:30 your time.  I have a training session scheduled for tomorrow already, but this Thursday evening is open.  How does 8:30 PM your time Thursday the 18th work for you?

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For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline Vudak

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2016, 02:40:22 PM »
I will need to ask the wife ack but it tentatively seems ok. Let's pencil it in and I will advise you if this needs to change. Thanks!
Vudak
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Offline Kingpin

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2016, 02:43:00 PM »
I will need to ask the wife ack but it tentatively seems ok. Let's pencil it in and I will advise you if this needs to change. Thanks!

Sounds good.  Glad to help!
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline Vudak

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Re: Assistance with nose to tail turns
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2016, 08:39:50 PM »
 :salute Kingpin! Thank you for taking the time to walk me through this.  It was very informative and while a two circle fight certainly isn't going to be my objective in most matchups, at least now I have some confidence that I'll be able to tell if I'm neutral, gaining, losing, etc.

It was fun, which I never thought I'd say about turning in one direction :D

Thanks again!
Vudak
352nd Fighter Group