Dogfight : F35 vs F16

[GScholz]

I'm not as pessimistic as you. I put more faith in the words of the pilots who fly it than media talking heads and internet though guys. And no, nobody is going to catch up to the F-35 anytime soon, and those who will eventually catch up are all NATO countries anyway. Russia doesn't spend even one tenth of what the U.S. does on defense, and China is still trying to catch up to previous generations of aircraft, and their industrial complex is completely compromised and corrupted by their fascist political system. I'm not worried at all.

[Oldman731]

I'm not worried at all.

- oldman

[GScholz]

 

[Serenity]

I'm not as pessimistic as you. I put more faith in the words of the pilots who fly it than media talking heads and internet though guys. And no, nobody is going to catch up to the F-35 anytime soon, and those who will eventually catch up are all NATO countries anyway. Russia doesn't spend even one tenth of what the U.S. does on defense, and China is still trying to catch up to previous generations of aircraft, and their industrial complex is completely compromised and corrupted by their fascist political system. I'm not worried at all.

Those who do fly them are not anxious to truly test them. As someone who MIGHT end up flying one, I'm not satisfied with its current performance, and I'm not going to take the developer's word for it. A weapons system which DOESN'T work (A stealth aircraft which has to open its doors every few minutes doesn't work. A fighter whose radar fails every few hours doesn't work. An aircraft which cannot employ weapons or countermeasures at max speed doesn't work) should NOT be placed into the hands of our warfighters. Nor should it be allowed to continue burning money WELL beyond budget without having produced a functioning example to begin with.

As has been previously said, the F-16 wasn't what it is today, but it WAS what it was intended to be from the start. The F-35 is not. The F-16 got years to develop further to become what it is today, but the F-35 is burning time and money just trying to live up to original expectations.

[GScholz]

So you're saying the F-35 program should be scrapped?

[GScholz]

And the F-16 was NOT intended to fall out of the skies due to system failures! We were a partner nation in that program as well and bought 74 of them. We've lost 17 of them in accidents, mostly due to system failures. 22% of our entire fighter force! The first in 1981 and the last in 1989. To say that the F-16 was functioning as intended in the '80s is ludicrous beyond belief!

[Serenity]

So you're saying the F-35 program should be scrapped?

Either scrapped, or capped. We should not continue paying money for a product that ISN'T being delivered.

[GScholz]

"Isn't being delivered" sounds like you think there's not any progress in the program? And scrapping it is not even an option. You need to pull your head out of the cockpit for a second and look at the big picture! There are eight nations involved in this program! A European factory is already delivering planes in Italy! If the U.S. were to arbitrarily scrap the F-35 the legal, financial and political ramifications would make the cost of the F-35 program look like pocket change by comparison. The F-35 simply HAS to deliver or it will quite literally be the end of the world as we know it. Your entire nation's credibility rides on it.

[Zimme83]

There are no options to the F-35, now its all about how much bang you get, and how much you have to pay for it.

[Oldman731]

The F-35 simply HAS to deliver or it will quite literally be the end of the world as we know it.

And so, once again, a project is too big to fail.  You'd think we'd learn not to get ourselves into such quandries, but evidently we don't.

- oldman

[JunkyII]

Our credibility is riding on the JSF??? Have you seen the election....

[Serenity]

"Isn't being delivered" sounds like you think there's not any progress in the program? And scrapping it is not even an option. You need to pull your head out of the cockpit for a second and look at the big picture! There are eight nations involved in this program! A European factory is already delivering planes in Italy! If the U.S. were to arbitrarily scrap the F-35 the legal, financial and political ramifications would make the cost of the F-35 program look like pocket change by comparison. The F-35 simply HAS to deliver or it will quite literally be the end of the world as we know it. Your entire nation's credibility rides on it.

So... I should accept a sub-standard platform, which cannot perform the missions I'm expected to accomplish, and I should risk my life on it MAYBE working, because a European factory is depending on it?

That's horse-excrement. Honestly, no, I DON'T need to pull my head out of the cockpit, because when we're talking combat aircraft, what's available to the guy in the cockpit is ALL that matters.

[GScholz]

Probably why you don't get to choose these things.   You're just a small cog in a vast machine called the United States of America (Inc.) And you are easily replaced.

[GScholz]

Our credibility is riding on the JSF??? Have you seen the election....

I was more referring to the military and industrial side of international relations... but yeah... 

[GScholz]

And so, once again, a project is too big to fail.  You'd think we'd learn not to get ourselves into such quandries, but evidently we don't.

- oldman

Too much is invested in it, yes. It HAS to work. However I don't necessarily think it is all down to bad management decisions. Like I said before every new generation of combat aircraft (or any weapon system really) is much more advanced and complicated than the last. The benefit of having a generational advantage over your opponent has been dramatically proven in just about every war since Vietnam. This is increasing every potentially dangerous aspect about a development program: Unit cost, development time, investments... We now literally have to invests unheard of amounts of money and resources decades ahead of actually building anything. These weapons systems are becoming so expensive and time consuming that they by their very nature have to be multi-national efforts, and there is little or no room for failure. That's my take on it anyway...