Dogfight : F35 vs F16

[GScholz]

That's why people who's rear is in the seat should not (and mostly do not) get to make these decisions. Having your rear on the line makes you less objective and all but cripples your willingness to compromise. As is clearly evident in the F-35 program. Soldiers of all branches of service all suffer from shiny kit syndrome. These decisions must be made by people who are above that and can appreciate the big picture... Even if it means your rear is more likely to get killed at some point in the future. When your life is on the line you are incapable of being objective.

[Serenity]

That's why people who's rear is in the seat should not (and mostly do not) get to make these decisions. Having your rear on the line makes you less objective and all but cripples your willingness to compromise. As is clearly evident in the F-35 program. Soldiers of all branches of service all suffer from shiny kit syndrome. These decisions must be made by people who are above that and can appreciate the big picture... Even if it means your rear is more likely to get killed at some point in the future. When your life is on the line you are incapable of being objective.

That is the most idiotic thing I have heard in a LONG time...

[GScholz]

Hey, don't get too uppity with your elders!

The Generals run the war. And who wins the war is decided on a much higher (big picture) level than a lonely pilot in his seat. That's why you have situations like where the P-38 didn't get new props or the Panther having a weak final drive, undoubtedly resulting in many fatalities. Fact is that in the big picture it was the best option (at least the top brass thought it was at the time).

Now I'm not going to stoop down to your level of name calling, but you truly cannot believe that the individual soldier (pilot) should be the one to decide these things? Surely!

[Serenity]

Hey, don't get too uppity with your elders!

The Generals run the war. And who wins the war is decided on a much higher (big picture) level than a lonely pilot in his seat. That's why you have situations like where the P-38 didn't get new props or the Panther having a weak final drive, undoubtedly resulting in many fatalities. Fact is that in the big picture it was the best option (at least the top brass thought it was at the time).

Now I'm not going to stoop down to your level of name calling, but you truly cannot believe that the individual soldier (pilot) should be the one to decide these things? Surely!

I'm not saying every individual pilot should get a vote one what we purchase, but when we start purchasing equipment we KNOW won't do the job just for economical reasons, it's not only foolish but inhuman. But you certainly fit the stereotype of the European model...

[GScholz]

I don't see how that's your call or how you feel qualified to question those who are appointed over you. You have a chain of command, and I'm pretty sure you know what end of that chain you're at. The top brass and politicians choose what to buy and deploy, and what you get to fly. They also choose when and where to put you in harms way and even when to knowingly sacrifice your life if need be. To become a naval aviator you've signed a few papers, and I assume you read them first. "I am a United States Sailor. I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America and I will obey the orders of those appointed over me." ... Obey them.

As for this "European model," I have no idea what you're on about.

[Serenity]

I don't see how that's your call or how you feel qualified to question those who are appointed over you. You have a chain of command, and I'm pretty sure you know what end of that chain you're at. The top brass and politicians choose what to buy and deploy, and what you get to fly. They also choose when and where to put you in harms way and even when to knowingly sacrifice your life if need be. To become a naval aviator you've signed a few papers, and I assume you read them first. "I am a United States Sailor. I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America and I will obey the orders of those appointed over me." ... Obey them.

As for this "European model," I have no idea what you're on about.

The people in the chain over me are NOT the ones making these decisions. The Navy has NOT accepted the F-35 as operational. The politicians are the ones making that call. The same people who are building planes that get put immediately into mothballs because no one wants them. There's a difference between accepting a dangerous situation because that's all that is available, and intentionally plugging your ears to the danger you're putting your men into because all you can see is dollar signs.

But at this point, I'm convinced that your only concern is how well the state will profit, and what wonderful new joint ventures you can procure regardless of the **** funneled onto those of us who will use it. You're beyond reason.

[GScholz]

Actually my reasoning is in line with those of all the pilots who have flow the F-35 that I've heard or read express their opinions of the aircraft. And while I generally like you and think you have come incredibly far since you first appeared on this forum many years ago, I cannot say that I hold your opinion of the F-35 in high regard at all. Why should I take your word over those of real F-35 pilots who are really enthused and have nothing but good things to say? A 2000+ hours veteran of my own nation's air force whose opinions started this very discussion, or for example Lt. Col. Christine Mau: The first female pilot to fly the F-35... Yes, even the girls love it! 



Perhaps we should just leave it at that. 

[Vraciu]

The guys who are staking their careers on what they say about the Joint Strike Failure have no choice but to praise it. 


It is a boondoggle. 


We would be better off with the A-7E than this junk. 


JSF = POS

[GScholz]

Here we go again. So she's a liar? and all the other pilots from a dozen different air forces are all liars. They lie so they can risk their own lives in a machine they know is crap.

Conspiracy nuts. 

[Vraciu]

Yeah.  They're liars.   Bogdon should go hang out with Baghdad Bob.

[GScholz]

[Zimme83]

A pilot will never say that the plane he/she flies is crap in public. No matter what plane it is, you simply dont do that.

[GScholz]

A pilot will never say that the plane he/she flies is crap in public. No matter what plane it is, you simply dont do that.

Every single aircraft that has been accepted into service with the USAF, USN and USMC since the end of WWII have been superb aircraft. Aircraft that did exactly what they were supposed to do, and usually much more. Some had severe teething problems like the F-111 and F-16, but in their ultimate form they were/are truly superb.

Every single aircraft that has been accepted into service with the RAF and RN since the end of WWII have been superb aircraft.

Every single aircraft that has been accepted into service with the Armée de l'air since the end of WWII have been superb aircraft. The Mirage series in particular stands out as some of the best fighters of all time.

Every single aircraft that has been accepted into service with Flygvapnet since the end of WWII have been superb aircraft. The Gripen has perhaps suffered from more teething problems than the Draken and Viggen, but it is still a superb multi-role fighter.

There has never been a "crap" aircraft in service in any air force in the democratic west since the end of WWII! They have all been superb aircraft and any pilot would be proud to fly them! Some have been better than others, but only in the sense that there are degrees of "superb".

[Serenity]

Every single aircraft that has been accepted into service with the USAF, USN and USMC since the end of WWII have been superb aircraft. Aircraft that did exactly what they were supposed to do, and usually much more. Some had severe teething problems like the F-111 and F-16, but in their ultimate form they were/are truly superb.

Every single aircraft that has been accepted into service with the RAF and RN since the end of WWII have been superb aircraft.

Every single aircraft that has been accepted into service with the Armée de l'air since the end of WWII have been superb aircraft. The Mirage series in particular stands out as some of the best fighters of all time.

Every single aircraft that has been accepted into service with Flygvapnet since the end of WWII have been superb aircraft. The Gripen has perhaps suffered from more teething problems than the Draken and Viggen, but it is still a superb multi-role fighter.

There has never been a "crap" aircraft in service in any air force in the democratic west since the end of WWII! They have all been superb aircraft and any pilot would be proud to fly them! Some have been better than others, but only in the sense that there are degrees of "superb".

The problem is, with the F-35 we're accepting too many instances of "It can't actually do this, but for another billion dollars, it might work in 20 years". And YOU'RE okay with that business model.

[GScholz]

That's a gross exaggeration.