Dogfight : F35 vs F16

[Vraciu]

Apparently, what the F35 lacks is a proper adversary within our own armed forces.

Couldn't have said it better.

[Vraciu]

Image courtesy of USAF Air Combat Command via Twitter (with one slight addition). 





Quote:
--

The Joint Operational Requirement Document for the Joint Strike Fighter / F-35 is for 3 sorties per day (4 for USMC) and in the mid-90 percent mission capability rates.

June 6-17.

11 Days.

88 sorties

7 jets.

OK.

7 jets. 3 sorties per day. 21 sorties per day. 11 Days. 231 sorties total. That is 2.6 more sorties than the 88.

5 jets, 2 spares. Organisational days either end for 9 days of flying. 15 sorties per day. 135 sorties total. 1.5 more sorties than the 88.

16 GBU-12. Wow. That is 3 or 4 F-15E sorties depending how the jet is configured.

--
End quote.


Math is undefeated.   

[Zimme83]

So conspiracy theorist is now 'expressing fact and/or opinion different from my own'..

[Vraciu]

So conspiracy theorist is now 'expressing fact and/or opinion different from my own'..

And anyone who uses MATH -- 88 sorties for 16 bombs (well, fifteen on target).   

[Vraciu]

Game over, Joint Strike Failure. 

[Zimme83]

To be fair some of the sorties could have been A-2-A.

I remember an exercise were they claimed that F-22 had a kill-to-death ratio of 98:1 against legacy fighters. Problem was that the 'blue' legacy fighters also had a similar k/d ratio against the reds so it was really only about the design of the exercise and nothing about the capability of the plane.

But deploying 7 planes for 1½ week and fly 88 sorties isn't that impressive, it says very little about what capability the plane has and at this point I doubt that they would design an exercise were the F-35 meets the best US can offer in terms of air defence. The F-35 still lacks too many systems to survive in such environment.

[Vraciu]

To be fair some of the sorties could have been A-2-A.

I remember an exercise were they claimed that F-22 had a kill-to-death ratio of 98:1 against legacy fighters. Problem was that the 'blue' legacy fighters also had a similar k/d ratio against the reds so it was really only about the design of the exercise and nothing about the capability of the plane.

But deploying 7 planes for 1½ week and fly 88 sorties isn't that impressive, it says very little about what capability the plane has and at this point I doubt that they would design an exercise were the F-35 meets the best US can offer in terms of air defence. The F-35 still lacks too many systems to survive in such environment.

The point still remains.  The Just So Failed can carry only two bombs if it wants to carry anything for self defense.   With this kind of production you will never win a war against first tier threats (as you also noted above).

Let F-22s and F-15SEs clear a path for airplanes that can actually carry some iron. 

Yeah, this farce was for show.  Why not face F-15Cs?   Why use the E?   It's the same as loading up an F-16D with drops--it was intended to handicap the opponent.  In the case of the D though it backfired.   The JSF was mincemeat.

Note also they call it "Zero Losses" as if that actually says ANYTHING.   I also have "Zero Losses" against the F-15E.

[Zimme83]

Yes, the limited internal loadout means that it will have to carry weapons on external pylons and thus removing any advantages of stealth. Some weapons, like AGM-88 has to be carried externally so it's fair to say that the F-35 cannot rely only on stealth against a capable enemy.

[GScholz]

So conspiracy theorist is now 'expressing fact and/or opinion different from my own'..

"USAF does America a great disservice. Again. Air Combat Command has an interesting event that shows them more as Lockheed Martin sales people than anything else."

That's a conspiracy theory.

And the guy who runs that blog describes himself as: "Where women glow and men plunder. Defenc(s)e, Government, Aviation, Entertainment, IT, Linux, Travel, Trek, Former USAF Photographer."

Yeah... I'm not going to waste my time reading anything this guy writes.

[GScholz]

A somewhat more balanced article that has actual quotes and sources: https://theaviationist.com/2016/06/27/f-15e-strike-eagles-unable-to-shoot-down-the-f-35s-in-8-dogfights-during-simulated-deployment/

[Vraciu]

"USAF does America a great disservice. Again. Air Combat Command has an interesting event that shows them more as Lockheed Martin sales people than anything else."

That's a conspiracy theory.

And the guy who runs that blog describes himself as: "Where women glow and men plunder. Defenc(s)e, Government, Aviation, Entertainment, IT, Linux, Travel, Trek, Former USAF Photographer."

Yeah... I'm not going to waste my time reading anything this guy writes.

No, it's an editorial comment--based on the evidence at hand using The USAF Marketing Command's own PowerPoint slide.

Eric Palmer, Blacktail, Don Bacon, and M&S run rings around any analysis you've provided.   (No offense.)

[Zimme83]

A somewhat more balanced article that has actual quotes and sources: https://theaviationist.com/2016/06/27/f-15e-strike-eagles-unable-to-shoot-down-the-f-35s-in-8-dogfights-during-simulated-deployment/

It still doesn't prove anything since we don't know how the exercise was designed.

[Vraciu]

Yes, the limited internal loadout means that it will have to carry weapons on external pylons and thus removing any advantages of stealth. Some weapons, like AGM-88 has to be carried externally so it's fair to say that the F-35 cannot rely only on stealth against a capable enemy.

Exactly.

Nevermind that every IR seeker within 1000 miles will see that giant blowtorch firing out the back of this short-legged piece of junk.   Can't climb.  Can't run.  Can't survive. 

The Chinese are licking their chops.  So are the Russians.

[GScholz]

It still doesn't prove anything since we don't know how the exercise was designed.

Prove? The only people the F-35 needs to prove itself too are the people who operate it, and they seem very happy.

[Zimme83]

Not really, it have to prove itself to the public as well, not to mention potential enemies..