Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"

[RJH57]

Remember in a lot of languages calling somebody a devil is derogatory, like calling someone a dirtbag.

I can more readily accept a downed German flier referring to any skilled & determined allied pilot that shot him down as a "teuffel" (i.e. a "devil" of an adversary, a back-handed compliment or as in "a hell of a fight") but not to a specific  a/c type. Btw, do you know the allied plane that MOST IMPRESSED (and aggrevated) the Germans: the DeHaviland Mosquito! 

[Devil 505]

To be fair, German pilots did not regard the P-38 as a joke either. There was a healthy respect for its capability.

From Johannes Steinhoff's "Messerschmitts Over Sicily"

"I had encountered the long-range P-38 Lightning during the last days of the North African campaign. Our opinion of the twin-boomed, twin-engined aircraft was divided. Our old Messerschmitts were still, perhaps, a little faster. But pilots that had fought them said that the Lightnings were capable of appreciably tighter turns and that they would be on your tail before you knew what was happening. The six machine guns mounted in the nose supposedly produced a concentration of fire from which there was no escape. Certainly the effect was reminiscent of a watering can when one of these apparitions started firing tracer, and it was essential to prevent them maneuvering into a position from which they could bring their guns to bear."
 

[RJH57]

To be fair, German pilots did not regard the P-38 as a joke either. There was a healthy respect for its capability.

True enough. You had better always respect your opponent in the air -whether he's in a Spitfire, P-38, P-47, P-51, Yak or LaGG....

“A man goes to knowledge as he goes to war: wide-awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance. Going to knowledge or going to war in any other manner is a mistake, and and whoever makes it will live to regret his steps....When a man has fulfilled all four of these requisites—to be wide awake, to have fear, respect, and absolute assurance—there are no mistakes for which he will have to account; under such conditions his actions lose the blundering quality of the acts of a fool. If such a man fails, or suffers a defeat, he will have lost only a battle, and there will be no pitiful regrets over that....A warrior must be willing and ready to make his last stand here and now..."

 ~ Carlos Castaneda, from 'The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge'

[bozon]

The full translation of the German pilot interrogation has been recently discovered in the archives. It says:
"Fork tail devils... the sky were full of them. They all augered on their attack run. I laughed so hard that I fell out of my plane and got captured. Those poor forktail devils... oh the humanity!"

So this nickname is genuine.

[Brooke]

Even if the story is true its still a German, not the Germans that called it the fork tailed devil.

And how is that different than what the quotes actually say?  You have a misperception from not reading what the quotes actually say (or reading into them conclusions that they certainly do not say or even imply).

Let's read these again.

From Life 1943, it says only this on the entire topic -- nothing more, nothing less:

"Into that camp the military police brought a disheveled German flier who was mumbling hysterically and repeating something about 'der Gabelschwanz Teufel'.  An interpreter was called, and he had the translation quickly:  'the fork-tailed devil'.  The German was talking about the P-38."

From Caidin's "Fork-Tailed Devil", is says only this on the topic -- the phrases "fork-tailed devil" and "gabelschwanz teufel" are not mentioned anywhere else in the book:

"NORTH AFRICA WAS WHERE the P-38 earned its name— Der gabelschwanz teufel. The fork-tailed devil. It took a while, though."

Do you see anything about Germans overall or in great numbers or even commonly calling the P-38 this name?  One says one German called it that.  The other doesn't even say that much, only that the name came from North Africa.

[nrshida]

The full translation of the German pilot interrogation has been recently discovered in the archives. It says:
"Fork tail devils... the sky were full of them. They all augered on their attack run. I laughed so hard that I fell out of my plane and got captured. Those poor forktail devils... oh the humanity!"

So this nickname is genuine.

 

[Brooke]

you gotta be kidding with this obvious piece of bullsh*t war-time propaganda

We shouldn't take any historical document into account unless it passes your opinion of being suitably neutral in tone.  Check.

I repeat: I have yet to find any GERMAN (!!) Luftwaffe accounts - memoirs & biographies, unit histories, air battles & campaigns  - ever using the term "Gabel-schwanz teuffel" as a reference to the P-38.

You probably already know this but (and I repeat):  just because you didn't see it written in the German accounts you've read does not at all mean a German pilot in North Africa in 1943 didn't once refer to a P-38 as a "fork-tailed devil" (or as a "twinboomed b*stard" or as "whatever that g*dd*mned double-tailed plane is called").

There's an article from 1943 by a Life Magazine writer who says a pilot did.  You, with no evidence at all (except for "I never heard of such a thing elsewhere"), say it didn't happen.  You are not the more-credible source.  "Claim in 1943 Life Magazine disputed by 2016 message-board participant.  'Well, I never saw it in anything that I read,' says user RJH57".  That's an Onion headline, not a useful argument.

So you may be correct in that Martin Caidin did not invent the term "Fork-Tailed Devil"

There's no "may" about it.  I am correct about that -- obviously -- unless you think Caidin wrote under the alias "William P. Gray" for Life Magazine in 1943.

I'm surprised that Caidin in his book "Thunderbolt" didn't claim

Ah, strong biases and preconceptions -- always worthwhile to emphasize in a debate.  The poker equivalent of, during the betting, uncontrollably blurting, "I'VE GOT A PAIR OF TWOS!"

[Brooke]

OK, you spuds -- I might deserve a beer for this one.

From "Jungvolk: The Story of a Boy Defending Hitler's Reich," by Wilhelm R. Gehlen

This is the wartime memoir of a boy named Will, who happened to be the nephew of the head of Nazi Germany’s intelligence agency, Foreign Armies East. . . .

The author, only 10 years old when the war began, became a helper at the local Luftwaffe flak battery, fetching ammunition. It was exciting work for Will (a member of the “Jungvolk”) and by the end of the war he had become expert at judging attacks.

From page 130:

"We heard the high pitch of aircraft engines and then saw them coming, just above the tops of the poplars. They were mean-looking machines. There were four of them, the new American fighter bombers, P-38s or Lightnings made by Lockheed, which could also be fitted with drop tanks and used as a long-range escort. They had the characteristic twin fuselage, and were powered by a pair of turbo-charged Allison engines. We had given them the name “Gabelschwanz Teufel” (fork-tailed devil) on our identification chart a few weeks ago, but this was the first time we had seen them for real. We had been told that their range was insufficient to reach us in Germany, but these devils had drop tanks. They jettisoned them as they came toward us, and the tanks landed in a field of stubble. The 88s were useless against them. They came in too low but we nevertheless did fire at them, probably just to keep up our morale. The P-38s made a turn and came on a beeline toward us."

[Squire]

This is the west, sir.
When the legend becomes fact,
print the legend.

-The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.

[Serenity]

OK, you spuds -- I might deserve a beer for this one.

From "Jungvolk: The Story of a Boy Defending Hitler's Reich," by Wilhelm R. Gehlen

This is the wartime memoir of a boy named Will, who happened to be the nephew of the head of Nazi Germany’s intelligence agency, Foreign Armies East. . . .

The author, only 10 years old when the war began, became a helper at the local Luftwaffe flak battery, fetching ammunition. It was exciting work for Will (a member of the “Jungvolk”) and by the end of the war he had become expert at judging attacks.

From page 130:

"We heard the high pitch of aircraft engines and then saw them coming, just above the tops of the poplars. They were mean-looking machines. There were four of them, the new American fighter bombers, P-38s or Lightnings made by Lockheed, which could also be fitted with drop tanks and used as a long-range escort. They had the characteristic twin fuselage, and were powered by a pair of turbo-charged Allison engines. We had given them the name “Gabelschwanz Teufel” (fork-tailed devil) on our identification chart a few weeks ago, but this was the first time we had seen them for real. We had been told that their range was insufficient to reach us in Germany, but these devils had drop tanks. They jettisoned them as they came toward us, and the tanks landed in a field of stubble. The 88s were useless against them. They came in too low but we nevertheless did fire at them, probably just to keep up our morale. The P-38s made a turn and came on a beeline toward us."

Bam! Now drop the mic, and don't look at the head-explosions!

[GScholz]

I've read quite a few memoirs and autobiographies of German pilots and not once is the P-38 referred to as the fork-tailed devil. Is it possible that a German pilot used that phrase after being shot down and captured? Sure. Was it a German nickname for the P-38 in common use? No. They simply called it "Lightning".

B-17 was "Boeing". B-24 was "Liberator". P-47 was "Thunderbolt". P-51 was "Mustang". Spitfire was "Spitfire"... Germans aren't the most imaginative of peoples I guess.

[Brooke]

I've read quite a few memoirs and autobiographies of German pilots

I think you haven't yet read this autobiography:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,378610.msg5041551.html#msg5041551

[GScholz]

I think you haven't yet read this autobiography:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,378610.msg5041551.html#msg5041551

He was not a pilot now was he... Also I have little faith in that account. If nothing else that kid should have stayed in school because no German would spell it "Gabelschwanz Teufel". Germans make compound words whenever two or more words are used to describe something. In this case the three words gabel (fork), schwanz (tail) and teufel (devil) would be combined into one compound word Gabelschwanzteufel.

[Brooke]

He was not a pilot now was he...

I didn't say he was a pilot, now did I?

Also I have little faith in that account. If nothing else that kid should have stayed in school because

"Our lessons in school, apart from a basic curriculum, revolved around aircraft identification (friendly and enemy), scrap collecting, herb collecting, parades and inspections, and messenger and light antiaircraft (AA) duties. . . .

"In 1943 I was ten years old, and at the age of ten we Jungvolk knew how to change the barrel on a 20mm gun. We loaded magazines and ran messages, often under fighter-bomber fire, between gun emplacements or to headquarters (HQ), when telephone communications had been shot to ribbons. A Hitler Youth knew the sound of a P-38 or a Typhoon making a beeline toward him with cannons blazing. He knew where to take cover in the nearest foxhole. He stood steadfast by the light of AA’s, handing magazines to the loader, when around him all hell was breaking loose. It was a total war, where everyone was involved, especially after the Normandy landings—because Germany, from that date, was waging a war on two fronts."

no German would spell it "Gabelschwanz Teufel". Germans make compound words ...

Maybe you don't know this, but in writing books, the author is often not the person who determines how the printed words appear.  That is the realm of publishing company staff.  Sometimes that staff makes errors, and sometimes they have a way they want to do it, and even an author who doesn't agree with them (right or wrong) loses that difference of opinion.  Also, when a book lists a primary author who is not a professional writer in collaboration with a secondary author who is (in this case Don Gregory) it is highly likely that the second author is the one doing all of the actual writing based on things told to him by the primary author.  I suspect that Don Gregory is not an expert in German syntax.

So, based on all of that, you dispute that the primary author is a German?  Or you believe that Don Gregory inserted falsified information about a picky detail of German aircraft-identification cards on his own, falsely attributing it as the direct statement of the primary author?

Ye, gods, man.  I get that German pilots clearly didn't typically call the P-38 a "fork-tailed devil".  I said that already.  I have read a lot as well (probably 50-100 books on WWII).  What is now proven is that:

1.  Caidin didn't invent the term "fork-tailed devil" or the story of its origin.
2.  The story of its origin is given in a 1943 Life Magazine article.
3.  A German flak crewman says that "fork-tailed devil" was used on German ID flak-gunner cards in 1943.

This does *not* say that:
4.  It was common for German pilots to call the P-38 the "fork-tailed devil".  I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT.  1, 2, AND 3 DO NOT CLAIM THAT.  4 HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT 1, 2, AND 3 ARE TRUE.

[Brooke]

In this case the three words gabel (fork), schwanz (tail) and teufel (devil) would be combined into one compound word Gabelschwanzteufel.

Except that these publications in German don't write it your suggested way:

Flug Revue, Volume 35, Issues 7-12
Focke-Wulf Fw 187: der vergessene Hochleistungsjäger
Finale 1945 Rhein-Main
Tausend Tage über Deutschland