Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"

[GScholz]

I didn't say he was a pilot, now did I?

No, but you used it as a retort to my "I've read quite a few memoirs and autobiographies of German pilots..."

And we are talking about German pilots or at least one captured German pilot starting the myth.

1.  Caidin didn't invent the term "fork-tailed devil" or the story of its origin.
2.  The story of its origin is given in a 1943 Life Magazine article.
3.  A German flak crewman says that "fork-tailed devil" was used on German ID flak-gunner cards in 1943.

This does *not* say that:
4.  It was common for German pilots to call the P-38 the "fork-tailed devil".  I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT.  1, 2, AND 3 DO NOT CLAIM THAT.  4 HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT 1, 2, AND 3 ARE TRUE.

Of that we are in agreement. However, considering the evidence of absence from German pilot accounts and recognition manuals, I'm not convinced of the veracity of point no. 2 and 3. I would like a lot more corroborating evidence before accepting them as fact. Even the fact that in some German publications the phrase is repeated using bad grammar indicates that the term originates from a person who's first language wasn't German.

[Chalenge]

If Martin Caidin sold that book as non-fiction, then it's the truth. He wrote fiction too, but the man knew his aviation history.

[Mike Williams]

Nice work Brooke.

[oboe]

Brooke, what happened to the kid in the P-38 attack?!   

Could you post the subsequent paragraph please?

Thanks!

[Zimme83]

Still considering it at an "Urban myth". Its same with the "Whistling Death" that the Japanese were claimed to call the Corsair.

[RJH57]

From "Jungvolk: The Story of a Boy Defending Hitler's Reich," by Wilhelm R. Gehlen
From page 130:

" the new American fighter bombers, P-38s or Lightnings made by Lockheed...  powered by a pair of turbo-charged Allison engines. We had given them the name “Gabelschwanz Teufel” (fork-tailed devil) on our identification chart a few weeks ago,

so this 13-14 year old German kid (10 years old when the war began) knows the P-38 was made by Lockheed and had turbo-charged Allison engines after it was added to identification chart just a few weeks prior?  I very much doubt that their a/c visual identification charts for use by Jungvolk Flak detachments included the maker and engine details. Would like to see one. Dubious, very dubious.

  We had given them the name “Gabelschwanz Teufel” this was the first time we had seen them for real.

NEVER encountered them before but already calling them  “Gabelschwanz Teufel” ??

Fyi, Mr. Gehlen retired in 1983. He now lives in the Smokey Mountains Area of Eastern Tennessee !  The book is NOT an exact translation of a German language day-by-day wartime diary but an English language memoir written and published in 2008 at the urging of and with assistance by University professor Donald Gregory from Huntsville, Alabama. I would bet that Mr. Gehlen and co-author Donald Gregory read Caidin's book and researched  other P-38 literature BEFORE they  wrote his memoir.

Fyi, Mr. Gehlen claimed that his 20mm Flak unit shot down seven aircraft:  Four American, three British! one mosquito, two scouts, two P.38's, a thunderbolt and a flying fortress! An impressive record if accurate, one that a Luftwaffe fighter pilot in Reichsverteidigung (Homeland defense) would envy. 

Just to keep this thread in perspective: I am NOT disputing the P-38's record of wartime achievement, merely that the Germans - whether mumbled hysterically by disshelved POW's or Jungvolk barely into their teens - never used the   ridiculous term  of “Gabelschwanz Teufel” during the war. It does appear that this ridiculous name pre-dates Caidin's book (Life Magazine, August 16, 1943).

[Arlo]

There appears to be a lot of squeak about Brooke merely pointing to a date
of use and other members of the community taking it as a personal slight on
either their fetish persona or perceived need to defend the apparently maligned
warriors in two theaters over the original claims in the legends (which, well,
are legends).

Sometimes, it don't take much.

[Randy1]

One source not mentioned was that Lockheed may have made the name up for the press or least passed on an undocumented tale.  Good press was important and the P-38 had some bad press to overcome as well as the high cost of the P-38 to build..   They wanted to keep making planes.   This is a WAG so i have no proof what so ever.

I think too of the P-47 nickname the Jug.  Some say it was the planes shape which looks more like a bottle instead of a jug but I believe it was came from a short version of juggernaut and possibly a Brit nickname.   No one seems to know the source of that nickname either.

A good find anyway Brooke.

[bustr]

Sounds like History professors while teaching graduate programs, assaulting each other over pet theories from their personal publications to keep their rice bowls full of tenure.

[Arlo]

Hey now. I aspire to that.

[Brooke]

Still considering it at an "Urban myth". Its same with the "Whistling Death" that the Japanese were claimed to call the Corsair.

No, it isn't.

See the above references, which are quite solid on the subject.

[Zimme83]

Disagree.

[Brooke]

I would like a lot more corroborating evidence before accepting them as fact.

So you also don't accept 95% of the content in 1st-hand accounts of combat in all those books you read, because the large majority of material in personal accounts are not corroborated by a second source (or more than a 2nd source).

Things like a rare pilot here or there using flaps in combat you disbelieve, because while you might have seen a couple of mentions of such flap use in memoirs, for each such mention there are 50 other personal accounts that don't mention using flaps in combat and even a couple of personal accounts where the author says "we didn't use flaps in combat".

Zemke's account of surviving the disintegration of his P-51 in a severe storm, you would disbelieve.

Steve Pisanos's story of surviving a crash landing where he was out on the wing of his plane when it hit the ground, you would disbelieve.

Smith's story of his B-17 being saved by two P-38's where one P-38 dove on a formation of about 50 Bf 109's and chased them off, you would disbelieve.

Galland's story of flying alone to the English coast for a bit of combat with lobsters and champagne in his plane, then coming back for a friend's birthday party, you would disbelieve.

Hartmann's account of how he escaped Soviet captors you would disbelieve.

The only stories you would accept are those where there is a 1st-hand statement, and a researcher digs into it to find a 2nd person who claims he saw it and it is true, or (since I already did that with the "fork-tailed devil" issue -- two stories that say the Germans used the term) maybe 3, 4, or more independent references that say the same thing.

Do you see that a vanishingly small amount of the material in war memoirs you've read rises to that level of scrutiny?

Even the fact that in some German publications the phrase is repeated using bad grammar indicates that the term originates from a person who's first language wasn't German.

When it comes down to a disagreement between you and professional staff of German publications on how to write a German phrase (in works that are entirely German with apparently no scrap of English in them, by the way), I'm sure you would not be surprised that I believe the later to be more of an authority on the issue.

[bustr]

Hey now. I aspire to that.

They never chuck the rice bowls and team up to find the truth. The accuser always says prove it while flinging rice.

[Brooke]

Disagree.

I have posted quotes from two sources, one a well-known publication from 1943 and one a 1st-hand account where the person says "We called it X."

Yet you believe X is no more than a myth that has no such quotes or evidence.

Two purely relevant, well-documented quotes is more than a myth with nothing backing it up, regardless of whether or not you think so.