Author Topic: How to gain the advantage  (Read 6600 times)

Offline Estes

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2016, 09:57:11 AM »
While I am no ace nor a current player, i've always found (and this is how I was taught) is to not let them get on your six as once they are there it's just a crap shoot if you live or not. Far as merges go everyone has said everything better than I could and covered everything, but again mentioning it the way I was taught to merge was to have as little vertical and horizontal separation from the enemy as possible to make it harder for them to turn inside you.

This is much easier to do in duels obviously where there are cold first merges, but  the idea is the same everywhere just have to tweak it a bit as to not catch a 20mm hizooka in the nose trying to cheese too tight inside a hurri in the MA etc

Offline mikev

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2016, 11:37:58 AM »
Magic I watched you for a couple of hours yesterday...I see what you need to do...you must be more aggressive with your maneuvers...now...don't take that as snap the wings off your spit 8 kinda thing...but make it groan a little...like when you were merging with that LA...chop throttle on the merge...turn inside of him, latch on and he cant get away...now be sure to try to judge his E state before you try that particular merge, because he could possible rope you and then summarily kill you lol...but h :rocke was slow...a slow LA is a dead LA and I think you and the other guy were both going be dead if I would have set and watched very much longer....I know you've heard it over and over but throttle control is key to winning any engagement...Violator for example WILL make you overshoot if your not careful...Dolby same way....2cmex same way...


LOL  chased a lot of LA s yesterday. but my aim was horrible. somedays i think im flying blind its so bad. i defiantly need to work on my deflection shots but i can do that anytime.
there were time i got away last night but there were times i was owned as well. the fun part for me is when i have 6 or 8 on my 6 and when i look back all i see is red . when i draw that much attention it means the rest of you guys can sit and pick and choose.not so good for me but a good chance for the rest to pick them off and clear the air of cons. thats 1 reason i like the spits. they may be made of paper but you can turn and dink the guys on your 6 and make it pretty hard to tag you.  my only problem is i never get the chance to give back any.
I know you've heard this many times over too...if you see me or any of my squad on...we love to take in newer pilots and help them with the tricks of the trade...  :rock
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Offline nrshida

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2016, 01:45:33 PM »
Magic, regarding deflection shooting, have a look at these (Click on the covers to download). Really worthwhile imho:-




Useful YouTube video based on Bag the Hun:-

http://www.youtube.com/embed/zsIz2bIBLwM


The German equivalent:-



No translation for the above but the picture are useful none-the-less.

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Offline nrshida

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2016, 02:54:08 PM »
Regarding your flying I notice you often turn one way which causes, as FLS says, your opponents problems only for you to inexplicably reverse your turn and fly once again right in front of them (making an opportunity for them instead!). I think you are thinking to jink perhaps but you shouldn't be doing that at those relative distances. Also as many have said your Spixteen can cleanly out-turn most of the planeset but not if you don't turn hard and more importantly smart.

So you said you read some manuals but you found them unuseful. Try this as a first step. It is a simplification but I think it will help you think about turning. If you can, print out the following picture:-



As the drawing is now it depicts two aircraft flat turning from above in a nose-to-tail or two-circle (as it's often refered to) turn fight. In reality this kind of turn fight usually degrades into both aircraft on diferent sides of the same circle, chasing each other's tails. This is why the term two-circle fight is a bit misleading. After the merge both aircraft turn to their right. As you can see, the top aircraft's flightpath has lead to him getting his nose on first, he has won this kind of turn fight because, even though his circle is wider (his radius is larger) his turn rate (degress per second) is faster. He's got around his turn at a quicker rater than the flightpath of the bottom aircraft and in this format this counts! The bottom aircraft has a tighter radius but a poorer turn rate (less degrees per second). This brings us to the first axiom of the turn fight:

In a nose-to-tail turn fight, the aircraft turning at the fastest rate (making the most degrees per second) prevails.


Now take this same piece of paper and fold the page across the horizontal line and hold it up against a window so you can still see both circles. Now the relative turns are in a nose-to-nose (often refered to as a one-circle) turn fight configuration. For example in a merge when two aircraft pass and both pull an Immelmann turn. In this configuration you can see the inverse to the nose-to-tail turn fight: the plane with the tighter circle has got his guns on first, even though his turn rate is slower.

This brings us to the second axiom of the turn fight:

In a nose-to-nose turn fight, the aircraft turning the tighter circle, prevails.



The drawing's a bit contrived and childish. In reality the radii would vary as well, but it serves to illustrate that identical flightpaths (it's the same drawing after all!), in different arrangements, give completely different outcomes.

With WWII aircraft your best turn rate is refered to as instantaneous corner speed which in my favourite aircraft the Ki-84 for instance is 227 m.p.h. It's called instantaneous because I can't sustain that rate for very long! We just don't have the thrust. I can do it in a descending helix but this is still an overall degredation of my energy state. However all things in ACM are relative, energy, angles, turn rate and radius. The smart way to turn is to understand who has at any given moment a better rate and / or radius. There is indeed a circumstance when both might be happening simultaneously.

Now let's throw in another component: gravity. Now imagine the relative turns are not done in the flat but in a more upright plane (same piece of paper but held against the window instead of placed on your desk), same business still applies and here comes the famous manoeuvring egg business. At the top of a loop an aircraft's radius is always tighter than at the bottom because gravity works with you. At the bottom of the loop the opposite is true, you have to fight against gravity. So as an application 101 - if you're in a nose-to-nose turn fight with you on the top and your opponent on the bottom, who will in general cut inside the other's turn? Many sticks even reduce power here to amplify this.

A lot to take in, sorry for that. Just try to have a think about it. 'Oooooooh' moment quite likely. Then when you look at Violator's first video for example the mechanics of why this works might become clearer.

Best of luck. Keep making the videos!

 :salute


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Offline 8thJinx

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2016, 06:00:46 PM »
I just viewed the video DmonSlyr posted. That is the exact move I talked about about in my first post. I love that move. I didn't know it had a name. Most of the time I roll right, though.
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Offline JOACH1M

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2016, 07:30:44 PM »
Never make the same style merge twice in a row.

That's all my advice
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Offline Kingpin

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2016, 06:13:57 PM »
Mike,

First, what you are asking to learn -- to convert a defensive fighter position into an offensive one --  is one of the hardest things to do in the game.  I say this because I think you are trying to run before you can crawl.  To get the best improvement, I think there are a few other basic things you might want to work on first.

In watching your films, I have noticed that most of your maneuvering is done while in the forward or forward up view.  Very few (nearly none) of your maneuvers are done while keeping the enemy in view, especially rear views, up view or 3/9 views.  You do use those views, but only to briefly look or "glance".  You don't transition views while maneuvering to keep an enemy in sight.  Until you can maneuver without ever losing sight of the enemy, all of the good tips and practice items listed above will be of little benefit. 

You have to maneuver relative to your enemy and his maneuvers.  To do this, you have to keep the enemy in sight while you are maneuvering -- not maneuver and then locate the enemy.

Watch your films and note where you are looking while you are maneuvering.  In both your films below, notice that while you are making your break turns, you are nearly always looking forward and NOT keeping the enemy in view.

Here are two specific examples from your films of you flying I suggest you look at.

In the first example, watch from 6:10 to 7:10 (one minute) and note the following:

At 6:10-6:15 you see a Brewster at your high 8 o'clock position with closure (he goes from 2.5K to 2K distance).  At 6:20 you glance back again and the Brew is 1.5K (continuing to close) and now at your 7 o'clock (tracking you).  Instead of maneuvering against this threat, you go back to your forward view and instead follow the 109 who dives at your 11 o'clock.  You pursue the 109 while never looking back to re-acquire view on the Brewster.

At 6:45 you start taking tracer fire (guess what, from the Brewster!).  You perform a tight barrel roll (without looking back) and then a high-G break to the right (without looking back to see what effect your turn is having).  AFTER your maneuver, you glace back and see the Brewster is still firmly placed there at your 7 o'clock at 800 yards out, but you only perform a couple slow aileron rolls -- nothing that presents a shooting problem for the Brew (see FLS' comment above).  Then the Brew shoots you down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F8b5-RU71Y

Here is briefer example (only 20 seconds) where you tried to maneuver against a con, but did not keep him in sight DURING the maneuver, which got you shot down:

Watch from 5:10 - 5:30 in the following film.

At about 5:12 you notice a Corsair on your high 6 o'clock 2K away.  You decide to turn back into him (a good idea -- try to turn INTO threats to force overshoots), however, you make a couple mistakes here.  First, you don't turn very tightly and you turn nose up (so you simply get slow and present a full plane form as a target - again, look at the film from your killer's perspective to see how easy or hard you made yourself as a target!).  Second, and most importantly, you turned without watching the enemy!

When, you do look at 5:22, he is inside your turn at under 1000 yards (your slowing in a nose up turn allowed him to close fast) and he is seconds from shooting you.  You try to tighten your turn at 5:26, but you do so without watching him, so you have no idea whether your turn will be effective or not.   In this case, he shoots both your wings off.

During your break turn, you should have stayed in your up view watching him, rolled right to place your lift-vector under his nose to get out of plane with him while pulling as tight as you could turn under him to foil his shot.  But without watching the enemy, you have no idea where to roll to get under his nose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoXnHYQeGVg

Now lastly, go watch Violator's film of his barrel roll defense (defensive loaded roll).  Notice that AS he is maneuvering he is using his different views to watch the relative position of the enemy Yak.  He keeps the Yak in sight nearly 100% of the time.  This tells him where to place his lift vector, how hard to pull to force the overshoot, when to time the barrel roll to push the Yak out front and then where to place his nose to get a shot on the reversal.

This is only possible to do if you maneuver while keeping the enemy in nearly constant view:

https://youtu.be/YAi_TRAV4E8


Using a hat switch to look around and keep something in view while maneuvering in three dimensions is not the easiest thing in the world.  For some it is intuitive, but for most new gamers it takes some practice.  While I applaud your willingness to dive into the deep end of the pool, I think this is causing you to skip over this fundamental and essential skill.

Working on maneuvering while in different views is, in my opinion, the next key step for you.  Until then, you are boxing while blindfolded -- you can't fight effectively against what you can't see.   I think it is honestly the root of all of your problems (why you get shot down and lose merges).

I suggest flying with a trainer or any of the of the people who have offered their assistance here and focus on maneuvering while NEVER losing sight of the enemy.  Resist the urge to look forward while you maneuver. Only look at the enemy and maneuver based on where he is and what he is doing.  Eventually you will be able to do this without thinking about it.   At that point the more advanced stuff will become much easier to learn.

Becoming more fluid with your views is going to unlock many new possibilities for you.  I believe it is the single most important thing for you to spend time on right now.

<S>
Kingpin
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 06:48:37 PM by Kingpin »
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Offline skjackd

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2016, 10:39:07 PM »
Mike I am by far not the best pilot in the game nor am I the worst. I was once where u r now. It is very frustrating to die all the time. My only advice is to learn the basics. Then seek out the guys that have already posted here. The DA is great but the best place for me to learn is in the MA. Fly with a great wingman who is also a good stick is one of the best ways to learn. Let them be lead and just cover them. Watch how they move and jink. Also on Monday nights in the AvA we have Monday madness it normally starts at 7:30 central. It is a frustrating place to learn but most of the guys that fly will be more then willing to help. You are always welcome to join us on Rooks on Ch. 125 on Sunday nights at 730 central and I will fly with you.

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Offline Patches1

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2016, 12:18:41 AM »
Quote
The DA is great but the best place for me to learn is in the MA.

The BEST place to learn is in the Training Arena with a Trainer.
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2016, 08:06:38 AM »
The BEST place to learn is in the Training Arena with a Trainer.
Debatable....depends on the person...a lot have become better sticks than a lot of the trainers and they have not had any actual "training"
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Offline puller

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2016, 08:37:38 AM »
Debatable....depends on the person...a lot have become better sticks than a lot of the trainers and they have not had any actual "training"

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Offline mikev

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2016, 01:08:35 PM »
 well a lot of right answers here, Kingpin is right i do not watch the 1 target when i turn and maybe i should. part of the reason for that is i dont get many 1 v 1 most of the time there  are targets all around or multiple cons on my 6 and i am trying to get low. i did try that last night and saw 4 on my 6 and when i pulled up hard i saw the parts getting shot off my plane. :x
  1 thing you have to remember when watching my videos, i make them for entertainment ,flopping views around so fast does not make good entertaining videos in my opinion.  but your point is well taken Kingpin.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2016, 02:14:22 PM »
flopping views around so fast does not make good entertaining videos in my opinion.

I think Aces High players can cope with that Magic. We'd rather see your journey of improvement and some Magic kills  :rock

Kingpin's put his finger right on it. That's why he's a trainer I bet  :rofl To support his suggestion I remember going to the TA by myself and relearning all of the BFM I knew while looking backwards. The importnat things to know are where the enemy is (because it tells you what he's doing), and where the ground is (because that will affect your subsequent decisions (energy)). An advance version of this exercise is to takeoff, dump all your ammo and then fly under the nearest furbal and work on your SA / ACM in combination. Without the ammunition you are not tempted to consider shooting or getting aggressive.

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Offline bortas1

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2016, 02:35:39 PM »
 :salute hey mike I would really like to be able to help you. but alas the only thing I can teach is how to die fast as possible  :cheers:

Offline Estes

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Re: How to gain the advantage
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2016, 02:47:37 PM »
So, are you actually wanting to improve or just make videos for the lulz/entertainment? If the latter is your primary concern I don't suspect it matters much, if you're still learning the basics such as BFM and "lose sight, lose the fight" I don't think you should even be worrying about making films but that's just me.