Defensive maneuvers against the dive

[Krupinski]

It's not AH but the same ideas apply

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zOD-5VzHjI

[FLS]

When you say roll to point your 3/9 line at him on the overshoot, how does that apply to the many directions his lift vector could be pointed?

It generally puts your lift vector perpendicular to the bandit's lift vector. I would hope to point my wing at the bandit before he has a shot opportunity instead of waiting for the overshoot and I think that's probably what Kingpin is describing.

[Puma44]

It puts your lift vector perpendicular to the bandit's left vector regardless of it's orientation.

Not quite sure that is so for all situations.  If he has already rolled his lift vector into you, it's not perpendicular.  That aside, let's let Kingpin answer.   

[FLS]

Not quite sure that is so for all situations.  If he has already rolled his lift vector into you, it's not perpendicular.  That, aside let's let Kingpin answer.   

I realized that and edited.  =)  Once he's pointed at you for the shot his LV is not pointed at you.

[Kingpin]

I would hope to point my wing at the bandit before he has a shot opportunity instead of waiting for the overshoot and I think that's probably what Kingpin is describing.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant, though the way I phrased it in that sentence was more for brevity in a list of all the aforementioned points that could be seen in the film.  I was not trying to explain each of those points in detail.

For accuracy sake, I might have said "on setting up an overshoot" or "just prior to the overshoot: once a sufficient Angle off Tail has been reached" but, I wasn't trying to elaborate in that detail. 

When you say roll to point your 3/9 line at him on the overshoot, how does that apply to the many directions his lift vector could be pointed?

When you say "his lift vector could be pointed", which "him" are we talking about, attacker or defender?  Both attacker and defender "could" have their lift vectors pointing in various directions.

What I was referring to as seen in the film at time points :21, :59, 1:36 and 2:25, is the defender rolling in order to maneuver vertically (push or pull) relative to the attacker, just prior to the point at which the attacker has a snap-shot opportunity.  In other words, he is rolling his lift vector to maneuver out of plane in the vertical to defeat a snap-shot.

Is that the point you were looking for?

[Puma44]

Yes, that is exactly what I meant, though the way I phrased it in that sentence was more for brevity in a list of all the aforementioned points that could be seen in the film.  I was not trying to explain each of those points in detail.

For accuracy sake, I might have said "on setting up an overshoot" or "just prior to the overshoot: once a sufficient Angle off Tail has been reached" but, I wasn't trying to elaborate in that detail. 

When you say "his lift vector could be pointed", which "him" are we talking about, attacker or defender?  Both attacker and defender "could" have their lift vectors pointing in various directions.

What I was referring to as seen in the film at time points :21, :59, 1:36 and 2:25, is the defender rolling in order to maneuver vertically (push or pull) relative to the attacker, just prior to the point at which the attacker has a snap-shot opportunity.  In other words, he is rolling his lift vector to maneuver out of plane in the vertical to defeat a snap-shot.

Is that the point you were looking for?

"In other words, he is rolling his lift vector to maneuver out of plane in the vertical to defeat a snap-shot." This is the kind of narrative that describes how to apply the basics.  The "point your 3/9 line at the other guy" has the potential to breed confusion for those who are new to the game.  It doesn't provide a firm understanding of the basics.

[Kingpin]

"In other words, he is rolling his lift vector to maneuver out of plane in the vertical to defeat a snap-shot." This is the kind of narrative that describes how to apply the basics.  The "point your 3/9 line at the other guy" has the potential to breed confusion for those who are new to the game.  It doesn't provide a firm understanding of the basics.

I agree with you that players should understand the basics, including what their lift vector is, so when you say:

Maneuver your lift vector to keep him from getting in plane with you.

they can understand how to apply this.

I think the reason we see so many players saying

turn 90' to them and point your wing at them while pulling back on the stick.

is because it tells them what to do, without fully explaining lift vector application.

Both are saying the same thing.  The latter tells them one way to do it without using any concepts or terminology that the beginner should be learning.  It is jumping to the how to do something, while skipping over the why.

I think you and I are in agreement that it is better to have these discussions in terms of "lift vector placement" because it is one of the most basic concepts that a beginner should endeavor to understand and much of the AH community skips over the use of the term when describing maneuvers.

[Puma44]

Well said, but "pointing the wing at the opponent" doesn't necessarily equate to effective lift vector utilization.  I am of the opinion that it will confuse newbies who haven't been introduced to the basics first.   

[FLS]

On the internet, when you tell them to keep their nose up, you can't see if they tilt their heads back. 

Some people want to learn proper terminology but others do better with plain language. We try to help everybody.

[RagingPineapple]

Maneuver your lift vector to keep him from getting in plane with you.

Puma44 is right, if the bandit gets into the plane with you, he can attempt to distract you by either making faces or tickling, both extremely effective.

[Kingpin]

TXDELTA,

If you have any questions on anything you see in the films or need further explanation of the terms/discussion here, please let us know.  That's what we're here for!

<S>

[Big Rat]

TXDELTA,

Get a hold of me, SIK1, or Kingpin.  We're all in the same squad and this is probably most easily shown from a ride along in the defensive position.  We can get two of us together, and show and explain from both the offensive and defensive positions (so you can see how it looks from the offensive side as well).  We can even work with Morf if we have too, 

 
BigRat

[TequilaChaser]

TXDELTA,

Get a hold of me, SIK1, or Kingpin.  We're all in the same squad and this is probably most easily shown from a ride along in the defensive position.  We can get two of us together, and show and explain from both the offensive and defensive positions (so you can see how it looks from the offensive side as well).  We can even work with Morf if we have too, 

 
BigRat

some of the best recommendations/suggestions in this thread.......

not taking away from the concept of how to effeciently do/utilize a break turn ( basic building blocks ) to the more advanced utilization of the BRD ( more advanced extended break turn maneuver with follow up role reversal from defender to being the attacker )

I encourage you to take up the Trainers on their offer for a ride along, to see the BFM applied from both view points

hope this helps

Hello everyone ~SALUTE~

TC

[TXDELTA]

I will be on tommorow night in the TA to take up your offer sometime in the evening between 4-9. Thanks!

[Big Rat]

I will be on tommorow night in the TA to take up your offer sometime in the evening between 4-9. Thanks!

TXDELTA,

I'll try and make it in before 9 central, but 9 is about as early as I can normally make it.  If this is too late maybe we can setup a better time, would probably like to set aside approximately an hour of training time.  SIK1 and Kingpin if you can make this send me a PM so we can coordinate.

<S>
BigRat