When in doubt, go to the source...

[Dobs]

So after the many & varied responses to the 38 Combat flap setting, I decided to just ask someone who flies it for a living.

http://www.flyingbulls.at/en/pilots/raimund-riedmann/



Here is the response back I received:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-kwhapBgCtYSWlkMllDTDFIRDQ

[FLS]

Nice picture. 7 degrees is not half extended. I don't think the pilot handbook is wrong.  I think the modern pilot has a different notion of "maneuver" settings because flaps that don't extend and increase the wing area like Fowler flaps are typically around 10 degrees. The P-38 is different.  Ask him what the the deflection is for half flaps. =)

[Dobs]

Based on your answers from previous posts your knowledge is obviously high, so you are aware that there is a stop for the flaps called maneuver. It precludes you from having to hold the flap lever to Open while watching the flap gauge to get the desired amount of flaps. 

So the guy who pilots this aircraft isn't aware of what the maneuver flap setting is actually doing to his aircraft is what you are saying...

[Traveler]

FLS is correct.  Go to the original document the AAF P38 flight manual 51-127-1. on pages 50 - 52.  Where it describes the maneuver indent setting of the flap control handle and describes the Maneuvering flap setting as "approximately half".  That document is the original source.  https://archive.org/details/PilotTrainingManualP38

[Traveler]

Based on your answers from previous posts your knowledge is obviously high, so you are aware that there is a stop for the flaps called maneuver. It precludes you from having to hold the flap lever to Open while watching the flap gauge to get the desired amount of flaps. 

So the guy who pilots this aircraft isn't aware of what the maneuver flap setting is actually doing to his aircraft is what you are saying...

Yes Dobs, the guys answer is wrong.  Go to Page 52 in this document, the original source on the P38 :https://archive.org/details/PilotTrainingManualP38

[FLS]

Based on your answers from previous posts your knowledge is obviously high, so you are aware that there is a stop for the flaps called maneuver. It precludes you from having to hold the flap lever to Open while watching the flap gauge to get the desired amount of flaps. 

So the guy who pilots this aircraft isn't aware of what the maneuver flap setting is actually doing to his aircraft is what you are saying...

I could be wrong, I'm just trying to make sense of all the different data. What fits the information about aerodynamic performance from Lockheed and wind tunnel testing matches the 3rd notch in Aces High at a 30 degree flap extension.

I know the maneuver setting was added to later models, I don't know what the Red Bull P-38 uses but it's an early model P-38. Look at this video. I believe it shows the flaps going to the maneuver setting for landing, half extended looks around 30 degrees. Flap extension at 4:20.

The reason the flaps go up again before going further down is because the flap lever needs to be moved forward of the locked position before going back past the maneuver position to full down. This prevents the flaps being pulled past the maneuver position in the heat of combat.

[Traveler]

I could be wrong, I'm just trying to make sense of all the different data. What fits the information about aerodynamic performance from Lockheed and wind tunnel testing matches the 3rd notch in Aces High at a 30 degree flap extension.

I know the maneuver setting was added to later models, I don't know what the Red Bull P-38 uses but it's an early model P-38. Look at this video. I believe it shows the flaps going to the maneuver setting for landing, half extended looks around 30 degrees.

My question is what is the extension.  HTC has not provided an exact flap model of the P38.  To make the game easy for the general public all aircraft have flap functioning in the same way, that is , 5 positions of flap.  to fully extend flaps on the P38 you press the flap extension button 5 times.   The original training manual calls that 100% flaps.  But what is it really, is that percentage of wing area that has been created?  In real life P38, the flap could be stopped at any position along is travel by moving the flap control handle to the "Closed" position.  So, in AH3 what percent of flap extension are we talking about with each push of the button?

[FLS]

My question is what is the extension.  HTC has not provided an exact flap model of the P38.  To make the game easy for the general public all aircraft have flap functioning in the same way, that is , 5 positions of flap.  to fully extend flaps on the P38 you press the flap extension button 5 times.   The original training manual calls that 100% flaps.  But what is it really, is that percentage of wing area that has been created?  In real life P38, the flap could be stopped at any position along is travel by moving the flap control handle to the "Closed" position.  So, in AH3 what percent of flap extension are we talking about with each push of the button?

The early P-38s had a flap gauge that shows Up, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, Down if I remember correctly. You can see that in the Zeno's video about flying the P-38. 100% flaps would be full down. I'm guessing the max flap deflection is near 45 to 50 degrees. Hitech has mentioned the first notch in AH is about 8 degrees but the graphic may not match the exact flap extension. The 5 notches are probably a programming efficiency that gives useful positions with less CPU work.

[Randy1]

Okay FLS, one more time.  8 degrees is about 50% of the flap extension mechanism travel.  The manual is right, and 8 degrees is right.

[Traveler]

The early P-38s had a flap gauge that shows Up, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, Down if I remember correctly. You can see that in the Zeno's video about flying the P-38. 100% flaps would be full down. I'm guessing the max flap deflection is near 45 to 50 degrees. Hitech has mentioned the first notch in AH is about 8 degrees but the graphic may not match the exact flap extension. The 5 notches are probably a programming efficiency that gives useful positions with less CPU work.
[/quote

I worked part time for a company out of KBLM that provided static aircraft displays of WWII aircraft, they had a P38G along with B25, F4U, P40, P51 and spitfire and I don't re-call seeing any flap gauge except for the Flap handle.  I spent move of my time in the B25 and P40.  The company like to subcontract out for professional pilots, I was with Eastern at the time.  It was something to do during the summer. I've heard that 8 degrees number before, but 8 degrees of what? 

[Dobs]

I'm with you FLS...contradicting data sources..from Pilot Operating Handbook to America's Hundred Thousand...

Seems to me the setting with most lift/least drag combo is what you would want. 

<S>!

[Traveler]

Okay FLS, one more time.  8 degrees is about 50% of the flap extension mechanism travel.  The manual is right, and 8 degrees is right.

8 degrees of what?  50% of what?  are you saying that an 8 degree extension of flap is 50 % of the total available flap?

[Traveler]

I'm with you FLS...contradicting data sources..from Pilot Operating Handbook to America's Hundred Thousand...

Seems to me the setting with most lift/least drag combo is what you would want. 

<S>!

That is exactly what they say in the original source: https://archive.org/details/PilotTrainingManualP38

[Ack-Ack]

I don't think the Red Bull P-38 has maneuver flaps.  It's a P-38F-5G- 6-LO, maneuver flaps weren't added to the P-38F until the -15 block.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Red Bull pilot was mistaken.

Maybe it would be better to call someone at the Planes of Fame museum in Chino, they have a pilot there that flies their P-38J and would definitely know the answer.

[FLS]

Okay FLS, one more time.  8 degrees is about 50% of the flap extension mechanism travel.  The manual is right, and 8 degrees is right.

Repeating it doesn't help. Ask 10 pilots what half-extended flaps mean, compare answers.

I worked part time for a company out of KBLM that provided static aircraft displays of WWII aircraft, they had a P38G along with B25, F4U, P40, P51 and spitfire and I don't re-call seeing any flap gauge except for the Flap handle.  I spent move of my time in the B25 and P40.  The company like to subcontract out for professional pilots, I was with Eastern at the time.  It was something to do during the summer. I've heard that 8 degrees number before, but 8 degrees of what? 

The first notch of flaps in the AH P-38 is deflected 8 degrees down from full up if I understand Hitech correctly. This is similar to the combat flap setting in aircraft like the P-51, P-47, and F4U.

I don't think the Red Bull P-38 has maneuver flaps.  It's a P-38F-5G- 6-LO, maneuver flaps weren't added to the P-38F until the -15 block.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Red Bull pilot was mistaken.

Maybe it would be better to call someone at the Planes of Fame museum in Chino, they have a pilot there that flies their P-38J and would definitely know the answer.

I wouldn't say Mr Riedmann is mistaken, I'd say he's flying a different model aircraft.