Author Topic: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35  (Read 10937 times)

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #75 on: February 09, 2017, 02:49:13 PM »
Short range and F-18 are synonyms unfortunately and the WTF-35 doesn't solve this problem.

Missed that one. In the OP's video the USAF pilot says the F-35 on internal fuel has twice the combat range of an F-15C with two DTs. That sounds substantially better than the F-18.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #76 on: February 09, 2017, 03:38:21 PM »
I just want to add that I think the 14 missile F-35 loadout is a fantasy. I'm sure it is (or will be) able to carry that, but I see no real-world application for that loadout. Just like that 12 missile F-18 loadout.

Could be.  Although the ASH with that setup would at least have more persistence than the standard Super Rhino.

I will say this, it looks pretty cool.  :)
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #77 on: February 09, 2017, 06:45:41 PM »
Missed that one. In the OP's video the USAF pilot says the F-35 on internal fuel has twice the combat range of an F-15C with two DTs. That sounds substantially better than the F-18.

Not on your life.  F-15 has three times the total range and double the combat radius of the A-35 (depending on how you calculate it, the only question is how much more range the Eagle has over the Lightning II...100 miles or 500) and that's assuming the 590nm pipe dream combat radius for the latter is actually true.

I'd be curious to see his definition of "combat range".   
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 06:52:24 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2017, 12:18:56 AM »
Well, just watch the video from the 16 minute mark.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #79 on: February 10, 2017, 12:24:52 AM »
Could be.  Although the ASH with that setup would at least have more persistence than the standard Super Rhino.

I will say this, it looks pretty cool.  :)

Looks "gamey"... Like something you'd see in DCS. Put tanks on those inner pylons and you still have 8 missiles, which is tremendous for such a small fighter, and you'll have a useful range as well.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2017, 12:27:34 AM »
Looks "gamey"... Like something you'd see in DCS. Put tanks on those inner pylons and you still have 8 missiles, which is tremendous for such a small fighter, and you'll have a useful range as well.

Well, I'm used to transformable Japanese robot jets that carry 12-50 missiles, so I love it. 

For defending home turf it would have its place I suppose. 
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #81 on: February 10, 2017, 12:36:17 AM »
UN Spacy FTW. Sure, but I don't see the hundreds of strategic bombers attacking America as a realistic real-world scenario anymore. All the Russian bombers carry cruise missiles now. They don't even need to get anywhere near U.S. airspace these days, and that Hornet is not going to get far enough out to sea to stop them. Same with carrier defense. The enemy will launch their weapons hundreds, if not thousands of miles away.

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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Offline Krusty

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #83 on: February 10, 2017, 11:04:54 AM »
Vraciu, if you spent less time trying to tear into the F-35 and going out of your way to try to coin phrases for how it's a failure and actually focused on facts, you'd find life is a lot more interesting and less filled with vitriol.

For example:

You're trying to show how great the F-15 is with range while decrying the F-35 as unable to fight or maneuver against anything. Quite the double standard. Hypocritical, you might say. The F-15 standard combat package is 2 giant weighty fuel tanks. MAX range, which is about 3000 nm, is only accomplished on an unarmed ferry configuration with the 3 largest external fuel tanks you can fit as well as 2 CFTs on top of that. You won't be fighting anything, anywhere, if you can't pull more than 1.5 Gs because you're overloaded. That's not a combat range. That's not a dogfight range.

F-15C combat range on internal fuel is about 1000 nm. At max speed of 1500 mph internal + CFTs that drops to about 590 miles before you're out of gas. That's according to NASA numbers on fuel consumption at 50,000 feet. F-35A had some early problems reported about not quite making 590 nm range -- with internal fuel only and 2000 lbs or bombs onboard. Depending on the report you read, a pure a2a configuration without 2x 1000 lb bombs brings that up to about 700 + nm. The F-35C CV variant has about 40% on top of that as well. That's not counting external fuel tanks -- which would be less draggy and more stealthy than the configuration on the F-15C. That's also not counting mid-flight refueling.

Pause for a minute. Examine how the F-15 is even used in this day and age. Hint: It's not as a cold-war MiG-killer. It's not as a dogfighter. The majority of its combat, anywhere, is as an overloaded bomb truck because the F-16s don't cut it at range. It's not dogfighting with a dozen Mk82s slung on CFTs. So... What are you trying to compare, even? The bomb trucks can't even operate on day 1 because they'll be shot out of the sky. The Air Force has better bomb trucks in this day and age with B-52s and B-1s being able to drop smart bombs from altitude with the same accuracy but releasing from way beyond the danger zone. Despite the original INTENT of the design, when you actually need to send them into combat with bombs you need to escort them, you need to clear the zone before they can even hope to go in, and they are slow and lumbering, drop their bombs, and get out. Funny how the F-16 devolved into that role as well.

In short, the F-35 doesn't compare to the F-15 if you look at the F-15 with rose colored glasses and ignore how the F-15 is actually used in real-world combat situations. When you look at what the Air Force needs to do when they use the F-15s, the F-35 can get in there safer, better, undetected, and the big kicker is the sensor fusion. You can't retrofit that. And they do it without escorts. In any condition you wish to look at Air Superiority, the F-15 doesn't hold up to is 1972 hype. You could have a single flight of F-35s with sensor fusion showing a crystal clear image of the area of engagement for hundreds of miles and have a ship-based G2A missile take anything out without even having to send the F-35s in. Or, you can send the F-35s in and they'll pick off anything from range. OR you can have them go in, and if they need to they can turn equal or better to F-16s and F/A-18s in use now, which are essentially the standard for turn fighting in this day and age. Even as recently as last June in 8 different operational combat tests the F-35 went up against F-15Es and was never spotted once when they attempted to locate the F-35s.

You may think its hip to hate on the F-35 "just because," or for political reasons, but look at it objectively. If you want to compare actual contenders, don't get all sentimental about the past. The past generations of planes don't cut it. Not even slightly updated. The reason is the recent technological leaps have been exponentional, not linear. There's no hope they can be brought up to speed, ever. To suggest otherwise and go backwards is just denying progress. Instead if you want to talk about potential replacements or alternatives, drop the F-15SE or F/A-18 nonsense. They're just fluff from giant industries that are selling a product. Look at the EF Typhoon or even the Rafale, though the Raf isn't as much of a challenger and the Typhoon has some political, economical, and developmental problems of its own (Gee... kind of like the F-35).

Offline Vraciu

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #84 on: February 10, 2017, 01:27:18 PM »
You're already wrong. 

"At 1,500 mph" (something the A-35 can't even do straight down with the wings off) the F-15 already has a larger combat radius than the A-35 does plodding along at sub-Mach 1 speed with only four missiles.

That's not "double the combat range (radius) of the T/F/A-35."    Not even close. 

The WTF-35 has limited front quarter stealth, thermal issues that restrict its cruise speed, a poor top speed (from which it has to slow down to open its doors in order to employ weapons--because the gun still doesn't work), low operational ceiling, limited payload, a helmet that doesn't work, a defective nose gear which makes cat shots arduous if not dangerous, ad nauseum.  It's a lemon.

Please learn some facts.    There are none to be found in your screed. 

The notion the T/A-35 can replace the F-15 or F-22 (yes, this is what the PR department wants us to believe) is simply laughable.

To win air wars you actually do need NUMBERS not overpriced mistake jets that are being parked in training squadrons to justify their existence.   The WTF-35 *is* going backwards.   Cancel it and use the money for something else--and that includes ASH and Silent Eagle. 

Yeah, the Typhoon had problems.  I'm no fan of it either.   But I wouldn't be surprised to find out down the road it did better than the Just So Failed at Red Flag. 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 02:10:57 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #85 on: February 10, 2017, 01:36:41 PM »
Krusty got the memo. 

http://fortune.com/2015/09/25/air-force-f-35/

http://cdn.warisboring.com/images/F-35-Public-Affairs-Guidance.pdf

Gaslighting comes to mind. 

The original PR memo for Red Flag and the JSF said 30:1.   I guess someone told them to tone it down a notch.   Hey, if you're inventing numbers any way why not make it 200:1 so it can be the new F-15?

I'll say it again.  The F-35 is not an air superiority platform.   The Air Force itself states the airplane is not meant to be a dogfighter.   It is an attack/strike aircraft with LIMITED self-defense capability built for yesterday's war, arriving over a decade late. 

Without the F-22 (and F-15 for that matter) to defend it the thing is dead.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 02:11:51 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #86 on: February 10, 2017, 01:56:08 PM »
Oh, and anyone who says you can't retrofit sensor fusion doesn't know what they're talking about.  It's all about money.  You can rip every bit of avionics out of any airplane and replace it if you want to.  The F-15SA is an example of something along those lines.


Speaking of lines...   Lockheed can't even get a mere 9 million lines of code right, so asking them to re-invent the Viper with sensor fusion probably isn't the best idea. 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 02:07:46 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2017, 04:21:44 PM »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2017, 04:27:26 PM »
F-35 - 2016 Year in Review



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfGuwS2tGPg

Thanks for posting the text link for iPad users.   :salute
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #89 on: February 18, 2017, 04:41:32 PM »
Yeah I try to remember to do that. This flash youtube integration is deprecated.
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