Author Topic: brakes?  (Read 7697 times)

Offline FLS

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2017, 07:19:45 PM »
The P-38 will extend 3 notches of flaps, i.e. 50% extension at 250 MPH TAS.

Lockheed's pilot notes state that the drag from the dive flaps is negligible. 

Offline Owlblink

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2017, 07:25:32 PM »
Well...since the dive recovery flaps should be also causing drag and they don't, I wouldnt say they work properly. And if you are insistent that the 50% setting is the maneuver flap setting, please make them deployable at 250mph per the manual.

Sorry to digress but wanted to address this a bit:

The first notch of flaps tend to be considered "combat" flaps in the 51/47/38. Now the actual degree of each notch for each plane may or may not be the same and may or may not be exactly the same as any preset degrees in the RL plane. For instance most of what I've come across in watching documentaries on P38 state that the second preset flap notch was considered the maneuvering flap setting and beyond that point you would be hurting the turn radius of the aircraft. Now I have not tested this in any scientific method myself but a few very notable p38 pilots in AH (soulyss as an example) swear that you get the most out of up to three notches in our 38's.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 07:30:12 PM by Owlblink »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2017, 07:33:16 PM »
Well...since the dive recovery flaps should be also causing drag and they don't, I wouldnt say they work properly. And if you are insistent that the 50% setting is the maneuver flap setting, please make them deployable at 250mph per the manual.

It's been a long time since the post, not sure if the original thread survived the migration a few years ago but it was explained in a post by HiTech around the time the P-38L was introduced into the game.  IIRC, the flap deployment we see in the flap indicator isn't an accurate visual representation of the flap settings but that the flaps do work as they did in real life on the P-38.  For game play reasons, the flap deployment for the maneuver setting was simplified in that the first notch of flaps is actually the maneuver setting.
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Offline Dobs

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2017, 08:01:25 PM »



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Offline Dobs

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2017, 08:10:06 PM »



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Offline FLS

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2017, 08:41:18 PM »
Do you think the word "some" better describes a significant amount of drag or an insignificant amount? I think it's used to mean "not much" in the pilot notes.

Since the point of the dive flaps is delaying compression, not air braking, I think it's a good simulation. If I called it a complete model you could disagree.


Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2017, 09:05:30 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)(Image removed from quote.)


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I think the test mentioned in the 2nd image you posted was done using a P-51B as a test bed for dive flaps, and not a P-38.  There was a thread that was posted about a year or so ago about the drag induced by the dive flaps.  While the consensus was that there was some drag induced, it wasn't very much but there wasn't any concrete data found that showed how much drag was induced.
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Offline Dobs

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2017, 10:34:17 PM »




You can see that they reference booms in the text and talk drag the bottom...


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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2017, 12:18:15 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

You can see that they reference booms in the text and talk drag the bottom...


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Confused it with this test.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930093004.pdf
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Offline Dobs

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2017, 06:28:45 AM »
No worries...easy to do when you just see snippets of a tech paper:)


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Offline Dawger

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2017, 02:33:38 PM »
Do you think the word "some" better describes a significant amount of drag or an insignificant amount? I think it's used to mean "not much" in the pilot notes.

Since the point of the dive flaps is delaying compression, not air braking, I think it's a good simulation. If I called it a complete model you could disagree.

There is a lot more going on than the writers of that manual knew at the time. They reference a high speed stall and loss of lift as the cause of the nose heaviness.

This has been subsequently discovered to be incorrect. You really can't rely on period aerodynamic explanations when it comes to transonic aero.

Critical mach number for an airfoil is the speed at which local flow becomes supersonic. When local flow exceeds the speed of sound a shock wave forms and as speed INCREASES ABOVE CRITICAL MACH the shock wave pushes the center of lift of the airfoil backward. This movement of the center of lift backward is what actually causes the pitch down moment of the aircraft.

This local supersonic flow happens on the curved surface of the airfoil (The top on a wing).

A dive recovery flap located on the opposite side well forward (33% of the chord in the case of the P38) is effective because it creates LIFT which effectively moves the center of pressure forward. This extra lift well forward effectively moves the critical Mach Number UP because it is countering the undesirable pitch down known as Mach Tuck, but it does this through aerodynamic forces that SHOULD be represented in the flight model.

LIFT produces INDUCED DRAG. Sticking something into the relative wind produces PARASITIC DRAG.

Something producing lift at Mach .67 creates a large amount of drag as well.

Producing lift at the 33% chord point also creates a pitch up moment (the ENTIRE POINT of the Dive Flap) This pitch moment should be present in all flight regimes and dramatically so at high Mach numbers.

So let's list the errors in the current P38 flight model that we can easily spot from this discussion.

1. The Dive Recovery Flap should produce Lift, Drag and have a SUBSTANTIAL pitch moment associated with its use. The report Dobs posted gives very specific numbers. 45 degree deployed 1.5 inch flaps at Mach 0.725 at 25,000 feet will produce a 3.5 G pullout. AHIII certainly does not model any of this.

2. The critical Mach Number is the ONSET of of the effects of "compressibility" or Mach Tuck. The critical MACH number of the P-38 is .67 in some sources and .69 in others. This is the Mach number where the effects BEGIN. The effects worsen with higher Mach numbers, resulting in the nose heavy dive. They should not be in full effect at .67 Mach as they are now in AHIII.

Here is a good intro on the gap between Critical Mach Number and the onset of compressibility and other effects.

http://www.flightlearnings.com/2009/08/28/high-speed-flight-speed-ranges/

So, no, it isn't a good simulation of the Dive Recovery Flap on the P-38. It appears to be a very simple code fix with no real attempt to accurately model the aerodynamics of the Dive Recovery Flap properly.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2017, 03:05:54 PM by Dawger »

Offline FLS

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2017, 03:53:08 PM »
There is a lot more going on than the writers of that manual knew at the time.

I'm confident the Lockheed engineers and test pilots could tell how much the P-38 slowed down when they deployed the dive flaps.

No worries...easy to do when you just see snippets of a tech paper:)


Speaking of snippets, you left out the part that supports your argument. What is the change in a P-38's co-efficient of drag when you employ dive flaps?

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2017, 04:36:03 PM »
This is the thread from the discussion awhile ago about the drag induced by the dive flaps on the Lightning.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,360029.0.html
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Offline Dobs

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2017, 06:00:26 PM »
I'm confident the Lockheed engineers and test pilots could tell how much the P-38 slowed down when they deployed the dive flaps.

Speaking of snippets, you left out the part that supports your argument. What is the change in a P-38's co-efficient of drag when you employ dive flaps?

Actually it is in the diagram in my first "snippet" post.




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Offline FLS

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Re: brakes?
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2017, 03:24:07 AM »
Actually it is in the diagram in my first "snippet" post.


You want to summarize that for us and tell us how much the P-38 should slow down or the total difference in drag?