Author Topic: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom  (Read 16582 times)

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2017, 08:36:17 PM »
Who? David Copperfield?

When the "crowd" are aerodynamicists at NASA I'll go with them rather than some guy on the internet.

My brother, who did not finish high school, was invited to talk to the engineers as NASA Houston as a thread expert. Most engineers are nothing more than schooled threats to your safety. Few are worth a damn.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2017, 10:25:47 PM »
The South Koreans operate one of the largest existing F4 fleets, an entire wing of them still, 70+ are still flying in the ROG air force.

Puma - what kind of blast radius or effective range did those Genie nuclear warheads have?  How far would 1.5kilo tons of kaboom kill a target like a bomber or even a fighter?

Puma alluded to how important the gun was in those days, that due to the limitations of systems, ROE, the missiles of the time - even the "good" ones - that having a good gun was critical.  The Mirage/Kfir/Nesher/etc all had a great gun, the gun cam vids of the IAF blowing up Migs shows that it clearly was very effective.  30mms from an accurate reliable cannon = all kinds of bad news for the opposing Migs of the day.

The Kfir is a good little fighter, but every dog has its day - good and bad.  The Daggers that Argentina flew, which is pretty much an early Kfir, got smoked by Harrier fighters, to the tune of 9 to 0 (plus 2 more from AAA/SAMs).  The cannon there played zero role in how things worked out, the Aim9L was just too good of a weapon by then, plus the Brits were good pilots as well, as were the Argentines (The Dagger wing badly damaged 6 Royal Navy ships).


I don't recall if we were ever told what the blast radius was for the Genie.  Just found this article that states a blast radius of 300 M.   http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/r-2.html

The goal was to aim at the lead of a Russian bomber formation and let the Blast and EMP take care of the rest.  We were only concerned with getting out of Dodge immediately after launching it.  At high altitude we would do a split S type of maneuver, going to full AB once pointed away from the rocket trajectory.  At low altitude, it was a more or less 135 degree turn away and full burner.

The gun in the F-4E was a deadly weapon.  It was common to pull the piper out in front of the cockpit of an opponent, relax the back pressure on the stick as the trigger was pulled and track the piper across the cockpit.  It wa always good to have the gun option when getting in close, someone making a bad move, and a snapshot suddenly presenting itself.  Nothing like the growl of the gun between my feet and the vibration in the rudder pedals.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 11:38:24 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2017, 10:30:02 PM »
The F-4 is not retired as far as I know. It still serves with several modern air forces in secondary roles. Japan, Turkey, Greece at least. Probably more. But you're right a modernized F-4 would be an awesome multi-role fighter-bomber! Imagine the power of the radar you could put in that big nose these days! :x Increased ord carriage and new engines. Would be a poor man's F-15E. Upgraded Kfir is like a poor man's F-16. I wouldn't call it a one trick pony though. Not even the old Mirage III from the 60s. It was a competent attacker as well (why it was later developed into a dedicated ground attack aircraft like the original Kfir).

Pakistani Mirage IIIE and Argentinian Dagger (Israeli made bootleg Mirage III/5) in ground attack configurations:

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

The USAF flew and retired its last F-4s at Holloman AFB, NM on 21 December 2016.



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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #78 on: January 18, 2017, 04:49:39 AM »
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 06:27:23 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2017, 04:51:30 AM »
The USAF flew and retired its last F-4s at Holloman AFB, NM on 21 December 2016.

That's pretty awesome. Few aircraft types have served longer.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #80 on: January 18, 2017, 04:58:27 AM »
NASA itself states clearly: "In fact, the wings of some modern fighter aircraft defy classification as simple delta.... "

And to address your little edit there: NASA defines the F-15's wing as a "modified cropped delta" and the F-16's as a "cropped delta". You're the only person using the word "simple" in this discussion, which I find very appropriate.  :D

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-468/ch11-6.htm
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #81 on: January 18, 2017, 09:57:58 AM »
And to address your little edit there: NASA defines the F-15's wing as a "modified cropped delta" and the F-16's as a "cropped delta". You're the only person using the word "simplea" in this discussion, which I find very appropriate.  :D

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-468/ch11-6.htm

Little edit?   You mean adding bold?

It's a cropped swept wing.  Extend the outer section of the F-15 wing and you have a 757.

A delta is a triangle. 

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Offline eagl

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #82 on: January 18, 2017, 09:59:48 AM »

Only some guy who has been at this intimately for half a century. 

Ok, I'll bite.  In what capacity?  What fighters have you flown?

More on topic...  I had a civilian sim instructor at Laughlin AFB back in 1995 who went by "Stimpy", and who had the distinction of spinning an F-4 in the break turn, coming up initial.  He punched out.  Some of the other instructors would give him grief over it and he was a bit touchy about the subject so I never got the full story.

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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #83 on: January 18, 2017, 10:02:44 AM »
Ok, I'll bite.  In what capacity?  What fighters have you flown?

More on topic...  I had a civilian sim instructor at Laughlin AFB back in 1995 who went by "Stimpy", and who had the distinction of spinning an F-4 in the break turn, coming up initial.  He punched out.  Some of the other instructors would give him grief over it and he was a bit touchy about the subject so I never got the full story.

Flying fighters is irrelevant to knowing what a delta wing is. 

That stated I've flown a few in my day, but I won't claim to be in the same league as Puma. 
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #84 on: January 18, 2017, 10:08:20 AM »
More on topic...  I had a civilian sim instructor at Laughlin AFB back in 1995 who went by "Stimpy", and who had the distinction of spinning an F-4 in the break turn, coming up initial.  He punched out.  Some of the other instructors would give him grief over it and he was a bit touchy about the subject so I never got the full story.

Sounds like he accomplished a tournament level "Mr Toad's Wild Ride" and made the correct decision to jettison the jet.  It's certainly understandable that he would be sensitive about a very embarrassing self initiated event.

One of my squadron mates in the F-106 had a similar event pitching out at Pete Field.  Story had it that the Six started whipping around and he managed to regain control and land safely.  He was met on the ramp by the local very POed Wing King who promptly crawled up the boarding ladder and wanted to know what my friend thought he was doing.  As he was still securing the jet with the after shutdown checklist, he looked the O-6 straight in the eye and told him to get the F off his jet, which the Wing King did.  Supposedly, they had a more civilized discussion on the ramp.  Don't recall what, if anything mx found after the jet was written up.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 10:22:39 AM by Puma44 »



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Offline eagl

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #85 on: January 18, 2017, 10:36:33 AM »
Ok, you claim to be an expert including disputing NASA's description of the F-15 and F-16 wings as "modified cropped delta", but give no details.

Going through my own fighter training (I flew the F-15E), the great low speed handling of the mig-21 was attributed to it having a delta wing with a conventional tail.  The F-15 wing was described essentially as a modified delta in order to retain the positive attributes of the delta wing (primarily high lift due to vortices generated near the root and interactions between the wing shoulder, wing root, and vortices effects on the twin vert stabs), without completely giving in to the very high drag you get when you put a pure delta wing up at high AOA.  The tailed delta maintains maneuverability at low speed and high AOA without suffering from the drag losses a pure delta has.  Same decision with the F-16, except of course the relaxed stability was intended to permit the pilot to consistently fly right up to the aero limits without crossing them, giving some margin of performance advantage to other acft with similar aero characteristics but with conventional stability and non-FBW controls. 

In actual flight, the F-15 does have some of the characteristics of a delta wing planform.  Specifically, the enormous increase of drag above a certain AOA without losing all the lift (the very flat stall curve typical of a delta planform), while maintaining controllability and pitch authority, are characteristics of a tailed delta.

The point being that you can dispute the terminology used by established experts in the field (NASA) without establishing your own credibility, because this is the internet of course.  On the other hand, nobody's gonna give you any credit and you come off looking like an argumentative armchair internet warrior.  Actually flying the aircraft and receiving both theoretical and hands-on training on what the actual practical differences mean in real-life goes beyond looking at a simple diagram and proclaiming that it is or is not "pure" anything, and yet you dispute the value of actual hands-on practical experience in the field.

And here's the bottom line - Whether you call it "swept" or "modified cropped delta", planforms like the F-15 maintain many of the flight characteristics of a delta wing while taking advantage of having a conventional tail and other planform modifications to address the drawbacks of a pure tailless delta planform.  The F-15 handles more like a plane with a delta wing than it does like a plane with a swept wing, which is why the experts in the USAF describe it using the word "delta" not "swept".  Because in both theory and practice, the F-15E wing planform has more in common with a delta wing than it does with a swept wing.

Feel free to establish your credentials and explain why your half-century of experience tells you that the modified cropped delta wing of the F-15 is actually "swept".  I'm not proud, I'll listen to your opinion if you have info I don't have or a logical argument more detailed than "it isn't any sort of delta because it isn't an exact triangle".

And back on topic...  A description of the F-4 planform is here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=twH0AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=WEFT+description+F-4&source=bl&ots=e7J9q7FDli&sig=qYE4y3Ytzz7OYf-oNYHp32aJAQw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0z4-5jMzRAhVL2GMKHSHzAoMQ6AEIJjAE#v=onepage&q=WEFT%20description%20F-4&f=false

(edit - that book has multiple errors throughout, however it still illustrates the usefulness of using certain descriptive terms in an inexact world)

Sorry for the ugly URL, not sure how to shorten that.  If the link doesn't work, the description given is "Low-mounted, swept-back, and semi-delta with square tips.  Positive slanted wing tips.  There is a saw-tooth in leading edges of the wings."  The trailing edge does indeed sweep, however the overall planform and difference between leading and trailing edge sweep is significantly different to the traditional swept wing planform for almost all aircraft that went before the F-4 phantom, which shows that aerodynamic thinking at the time was leaning in the direction of the efficiencies and benefits of the tailed-delta planform on fighter aircraft and away from the early swept designs that the US had been using with early aircraft such as the F-86 and many of the century series aircraft.  The F-15, F-16, and others are clear examples that the delta planform, modified to address some of the drawbacks to a pure delta wing, had benefits that were very apparent to designers at the time.

By the way, that book I linked in the url uses the word "delta" in its wing description of the F-16, F-18, and F-15.  The F-15 is called "semi-delta with angular, blunt tips."

Lots of experts, lots of use of the word "delta".  Maybe in actual use, a "delta" wing planform description isn't only a pure geometrical triangle when drawn on a line diagram.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 10:50:11 AM by eagl »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #86 on: January 18, 2017, 10:44:46 AM »
A delta is a triangle.

These are all triangles Vraciu.

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Offline eagl

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #87 on: January 18, 2017, 10:51:51 AM »
Only #6 is a triangle.  The rest are swept or tapered 3-sided polygons.   :devil
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 10:58:29 AM by eagl »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #88 on: January 18, 2017, 11:07:49 AM »
 :rofl
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2017, 11:17:09 AM »
Eagl, did the conformals on the E have any affect on handling characteristics other than drag?



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