"Horse's Itch" - 357th FG, 363 FS - P-51D

[Mister Fork]

Horses Itch is clearly a white nose...

[Mister Fork]

Figured out why Ed's was white and his mates were yellow-red checkered. The wing commander's nose was always white. Before Ed, Colonel Henry Spicer's P-51 had a white nose as well on his P-51B. Ed was just continuing on with tradition with the lead in white and the rest red-yellow checkered.  Mystery solved

Ed's wing


Henry's wing

[oboe]

Nice find, MisterFork!  I t makes much more sense than trying to blame the film used for the supposed disappearance of the checkerboarding.

[fyvsix]

I think you guys are jumping to the conclusion you want. I have seen multiple pictures of known checkered aircraft that appear white or very faint. I would believe the ground crewman that helped paint them. I'll post some more pics when I can get home.

S!

[Vraciu]

Figured out why Ed's was white and his mates were yellow-red checkered. The wing commander's nose was always white. Before Ed, Colonel Henry Spicer's P-51 had a white nose as well on his P-51B. Ed was just continuing on with tradition with the lead in white and the rest red-yellow checkered.  Mystery solved

Ed's wing
(Image removed from quote.)

Henry's wing
(Image removed from quote.)

Thanks, Fork.

I have also heard it was yellow because the red checkering had not been added yet.

Certainly popular perception is a white nose.    I love the look.   I would hate for it to be disproven.   Guess we will see...

[Vraciu]

I think you guys are jumping to the conclusion you want. I have seen multiple pictures of known checkered aircraft that appear white or very faint. I would believe the ground crewman that helped paint them. I'll post some more pics when I can get home.

S!

We just have to make our best judgment call on it...   <S>

[Fencer51]

Ok if we are going with the Group Leader (not Wing Commander lol) was the only one with white noses... then how do you explain the other planes in that second photo that fyvsix posted.



The 357th had long got away from white noses.  If it was formation identification it would have been on the tail.

[Vraciu]

I have NOTHING that says definitively that Horse's Itch had a checkered nose.    I have one source that says they "believe" it was checkered.   One that says they "believe" it was yellow.   Everything else shows white.

I'm not closed-minded about it.    I simply have no definitive proof that it was NOT white.   So for now it is white and we'll revisit the issue when more data comes in.

It sucks that the nose is outside the frame.   

[fyvsix]

Figured out why Ed's was white and his mates were yellow-red checkered. The wing commander's nose was always white. Before Ed, Colonel Henry Spicer's P-51 had a white nose as well on his P-51B. Ed was just continuing on with tradition with the lead in white and the rest red-yellow checkered.  Mystery solved

This argument does not hold water. This is just reaching for a coincidence. Tony Boy is an early B/C from March. All the noses were white then.

Here is a picture of Col Graham who replaces Spicer, with a clearly checkered P-51D B6-W.

[Mister Fork]

And that B&W photo clearly shows checkered but I can't find anything on ed's plane with a checkered. If it had, there is no evidence of it. Conversely, there's nothing indicating that white nose for the group leadt wasn't used to identify. I was making the argument based on Ed (who replaced Henry).

Historical photos all show the Itch with white. And if his previous boss had a white nose- well, cause and effect no. Regardless, with all the history photos online and on the internet, of the Itch had a checkered nose, no one took a picture of it. 

[Fencer51]

Vraicu,

Hey in case you do not know, the guy who wrote the book he is referencing was a crew chief in the 357th and became their historian after the war.  He has published several books on his Group.  If you are going to take the word of anyone he is the guy.  He talked to and gather pictures from all the people he could get ahold of from the group for decades.

Also remember LOU IV... Blue in the formation picture and taken for granted as "it's a photo" to the point that many people just accepted it, until enough of the actual 361st Group members laughed it out of town.

[Vraciu]

I'm aware of who he is.   

I remain unconvinced.   His statement is less than definitive.  There is as yet nothing to rule it out either way.

IRT the other point...  Many eyewitnesses described the color on Lou IV et al. as blue.   Without physical proof it is what it is.

[Fencer51]

I'm well aware of who he is. 

I remain unconvinced.   His statement is less than definitive.  There is as yet nothing to rule it out either way.

IRT the other point...  Many eyewitnesses described the color on Lou IV et al. as blue.   Without physical proof it is what it is.

Ok good enough, your skin your interpretation to defend. 

Cheers

[fyvsix]

Ok if we are going with the Group Leader (not Wing Commander lol) was the only one with white noses... then how do you explain the other planes in that second photo that fyvsix posted.

(Image removed from quote.)

The 357th had long got away from white noses.  If it was formation identification it would have been on the tail.

The aircraft in this picture are as follows:

413518 B6-D Ed Hiro HORSE"S ITCH

413681 B6-F Don Bochkay WINGED ACE OF CLUBS

413522 B6-G William O'Brien BILLY'S squeak

41372 B6-V Robert Foy RELUCTANT REBEL

Here is a different shot of 3 of the same aircraft with the same washed out noses, but you can see some of the color bands on the prop hub on B6-F and some checkering on B6-G:



Here is 413522 B6-G William O'Brien BILLY'S squeak clearly showing a checkered nose.



Here is 41372 B6-V Robert Foy RELUCTANT REBEL showing faint checkering and propeller bands that are almost washed out.




Here are some picture of known checkered aircraft which are showing white due to being washed out.





Finally, here is a picture of horses itch stating the type of film being used as Panchromatic film in bright sunlight.



I hope this helps you see that the noses were not white. The 357th was a very proud unit and these colors were for identification as well as unit pride. It makes no sense for the CO to have a different color. You do not see that in the 8th air force's other groups either.

S!
Fyvsix

[Devil 505]

I'm not convinced either about the nose being checkered. The overall fidelity of the photo Horse's Itch does not lend it's self to only washing out reds and yellow and making them appear white when all of the other subtle variations are maintained. If the nose was checkered, both colors should not match the the tone of white stripes. Furthermore, some evidence of the checkers should be seen in the shaded regions of the lower nose if it were indeed checkered, but there is no evidence of different colors.

Also, in the picture of the rear fuselage the yellow of the serial number is a darker shade than the white stripes. If the film was the culprit of some color blend, the serial should match the stripes in that case also.

As far as I'm concerned, the nose of Horse's Itch was white when photographed.