Author Topic: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively  (Read 12076 times)

Offline Vraciu

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2017, 10:52:38 PM »
I use the film viewer for checking alignments and such. much quicker.

How on earth is that quicker?  You must have some magic powers.    :noid
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2017, 11:26:33 PM »
It's quicker than launching the game every time.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2017, 11:28:48 PM »
It's quicker than launching the game every time.

Okay I need to learn this Jedi Mind Trick.

For the life of me I cannot fathom what you do.   The again, I haven't used the film Viewer in two years--and never in AH3.   
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2017, 11:41:01 PM »
Fly your skin offline, even in it's most basic state. Just make sure that the folder is correct, so you can change or add files as you go.

In your flight, set your time to about 10am and try to get many different angles off the Sun. Making fast attacks on the drones is a good way to do this with many rolls and loops. Takes all of 15 minutes to set up a good film. Also, before you take off, shut down the engine long enough to stop the spinner and drop your flaps and re-raise them. End flight and name your film something easy to pick out. I always use "(plane) TEST" like "109G-2 TEST"

Now in the film viewer it is much easier to move around the plane and get close up to details and see exactly how they look in the game - especially important when adding simulated bumps.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2017, 11:45:55 PM »
I will have to try it. 
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2017, 12:44:00 PM »
Okay, so I am working with a lighter spec map for the NMF.     I have varied it across the wing.   The right side (without the insignia) is the control.   Moving right to left I brightened the spec map gray shade in increments 1-13.

I took shots with varying light to see what gets picked up.    Thoughts?





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Offline Devil 505

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2017, 01:09:04 PM »
Is this just for the _S map?
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2017, 01:11:49 PM »
Is this just for the _S map?


Yes, sir.  The image below is the one Hitech said looks like painted gray and Skuzzy said was not picking up much specularity.  I took the Spec map (p51d_s) and brightened it then put in a gradient in blocks from right to left, getting brighter as we go (previous post).   I will have to clean it up and adjust panel lines but I need to nail down the specularity before I do so.




« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 01:26:32 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline Owlblink

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2017, 01:39:03 PM »
Now you are getting cleaver! Making yardsticks, so to speak, for self reference also helps others nail down what they are trying to communicate. Glad you are still at it!
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2017, 02:00:51 PM »
Now you are getting cleaver! Making yardsticks, so to speak, for self reference also helps others nail down what they are trying to communicate.


Desperate times call for desperate measures!!!   :old:


Quote
Glad you are still at it!


Thanks man.  A lot of you guys talked me off the ledge so to speak.  Thanks for putting up with me in the meantime!



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Offline Devil 505

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2017, 02:11:12 PM »
Is this skin using a very dark power map on the metal? What I'm seeing compared to the default is your highlight is too focused. if you are using the settings I gave you earlier, your Power map should be very dark and the skin should be less focused than the default - which is too glossy on the wings to me.

Also, the AH3 default P-51D skin has lots of baked in detail and highlights as well. I really think you need to stop worrying about fine tuning the spec maps until you finish detailing your base skin. Bake in the details to make the metal look like metal and use a different shade of gray for silver paint.

The spec maps are the last step. Get your diffuse map finished first.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2017, 02:23:31 PM »
Is this skin using a very dark power map on the metal? What I'm seeing compared to the default is your highlight is too focused. if you are using the settings I gave you earlier, your Power map should be very dark and the skin should be less focused than the default - which is too glossy on the wings to me.


I totally agree with this, but Hitech and Skuzzy think otherwise.   I believe any way...

I haven't gotten to revising the power map because I *think* I am using the Spec as the jumping off point.  I can throw something up there now.

Quote
Also, the AH3 default P-51D skin has lots of baked in detail and highlights as well. I really think you need to stop worrying about fine tuning the spec maps until you finish detailing your base skin. Bake in the details to make the metal look like metal and use a different shade of gray for silver paint.

The spec maps are the last step. Get your diffuse map finished first.


Well, I am almost done with it.   I need to learn what the Spec map is going to do before I try baking stuff in.   I did the baked-in with Jo-Baby (the yellow tail) and it looked like crap because the Spec maps blew it up.   I'm chasing my tail around.    When I get the Spec maps to behave then I can *try* some baked in detail...maybe.    But Skuzzy seems to indicate that we need to let the Spec maps do the work for us.

My detail is 99% finished.   It's all about cleanup and adding things that the Spec map won't really change--like panel lines and rivets.  I know how those will react already.

If I can't get these Spec maps to do what I want then the diffuse is academic really.    :bhead






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Offline Devil 505

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2017, 03:15:09 PM »
I think that yous skin does not convey what is metal or silver paint enough. That might be what is throwing off Skuzzy and Hitech. The other issue is that you have not baked in heavy enough detail because you insist on keeping an accurately clean finish on the puttied an painted wing surface. I understand your choice to do so, but it looks flat and boring. Look at the the AH3 default P-51D and look at how dirty and detailed the base skin is. These problems are compounded by the fact that the 3D model is old and has flat shapes.

I added a "Silver paint" area to the left wing of my metal 109 to illustrate the differences you should look to make between metal and silver paint.


Pure gray for the paint vs. blueish gray for metal. I erased the baked in panel shape highlight over the painted area, but kept the rivet and panel line highlights and lowlights unchanged. All other weathering remains unchanged as well.

The only change to any spec maps was to darken the painted panel on the _S map from RGB 158 to 102. You may want to lighten the same area on the _E and _P maps slightly as well.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2017, 03:27:48 PM »
I think that yous skin does not convey what is metal or silver paint enough. That might be what is throwing off Skuzzy and Hitech. The other issue is that you have not baked in heavy enough detail because you insist on keeping an accurately clean finish on the puttied an painted wing surface. I understand your choice to do so, but it looks flat and boring. Look at the the AH3 default P-51D and look at how dirty and detailed the base skin is. These problems are compounded by the fact that the 3D model is old and has flat shapes.

I respect that opinion.  OTOH, I think the otherwise mostly-excellent default is *WAY* overdone on detail in some spots.   It looks lumpy and a tad fake on the bottom.    I am aiming for somewhere in the middle ultimately, but I don't intend to go anywhere near as stark as the default.  It doesn't look right.   I've toyed with the notion of doing a copy and paste of the default and just steal the underside if that's what it takes to get approved, but that wouldn't really help because then I'd have to do the same for the spec map and I'd wind up with a lumpy skin--which is precisely what I do NOT want.

The skin shape is already lumpy and angular as it is.   Adding tons of rivets and panel lines doesn't do anything to make the airplane look better.   It actually looks worse.   Gradients to the paneling may help, but if only if I can get the specularity right.

I've tried baked in detail before.  It looks good on my diffuse map but horribly fake in the game.   It doesn't work because I can't get the lighting effects to behave on the natural metal.   

If the skinning team wants all the skins to look the same then Hitech should just have you, Greebo, and Cactus do them all.   The rest of us will stick to the arenas.   I get lots of compliments for the fact that I don't overdo the detail like most other Mustangs.    My skins don't detract from AH3 and nobody is forced to use them.    Variety in style is a good thing.    If it isn't then we can just cut and paste the default with different colors or something...

(Ultimately I feel at times like I am being blacklisted.  If that's the case then I would prefer to be told so I can quit wasting everyone's time.   Then again, if that *WERE* the case, Skuzzy and Hitech wouldn't expend the effort to help me.   In any event, this is just frustration talking, and I intend to keep trying any way.   I've attempted the other method and got nowhere.  I need to try this approach instead to see if it clicks.)

I'm taking a step by step approach to this.   Working my way UP to the higher detail not down.   I'd rather have too little than too much.   

If I get the specular right then my eye can adjust around that better than trying the other way around.  I've already tried it that way and it just doesn't work.    I finally figured out the AH2 system and that approach worked well there.   It doesn't translate here for me.

I *NEED* to know what the specular is supposed to be, otherwise I do everything multiple times to get the effect I want.    I'm worn out with it.


Quote

I added a "Silver paint" area to the left wing of my metal 109 to illustrate the differences you should look to make between metal and silver paint.







Pure gray for the paint vs. blueish gray for metal. I erased the baked in panel shape highlight over the painted area, but kept the rivet and panel line highlights and lowlights unchanged. All other weathering remains unchanged as well.

The only change to any spec maps was to darken the painted panel on the _S map from RGB 158 to 102. You may want to lighten the same area on the _E and _P maps slightly as well.


Those are superb effects.    Absolutely terrific.

Something like that is what I have in mind.     :aok :salute

« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 03:57:40 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: P-51D Mustang - 4th FG, 334FS - Maj. Howard Hively
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2017, 03:47:44 PM »
The bumpiness is from the normal map.


Those are superb effects.    Absolutely terrific.

Something like that is what I have in mind.     :aok :salute

Here are all the files on the G-6.

Look at all the detail I baked into the diffuse map and how basic the spec maps are. Also note that I did not add any rivet detail to the normal map.








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