VR Life without Trackir

[Randy1]

You can disagree all you like, but there is a significant difference in how 2D and 3D is perceived by your brain.  It is not anything conscious, but it is very different.

In VR, when you start doing things, which are not done in the real world, is when things get dicey.  2D is easy.  No problem there as it is completely disconnected from the real world.  . . .

I am not trying to mash your grapes Skuzzy.  Your gaming-PC knowledge base is way over my head.  The 17 Pounder supports your side for sure.  In regular AH the 17 Pounder fixed view kinda sucks but in VR it makes you nauseated.

In real life you can add addition rear view with a eye slant which you do not have in VR.  That bit more hurts the rear view.

Still,  I sure would like to try a modified movement curve on VR like TrackIR.  If I chunk supper, then Skuzzy, you were right.

[Mister Fork]

MY 17 pounder view is ALL messed up - can't really use the gun. The AA 88MM however - VR actually helps with it's ZOOMING capabilities. I'm a bit of a beast when I'm in a 88 and tanks are rolling close into the airfield and I just start poppin their tops like gum from a foil wrapper.

[Gman]

The problem with checking "6" in RL is that most chairs we use are padded and resist swiveling your hips/butt.  Jets tend to have a firm, non-compression seat which makes it easy to  swivel hips/butt to enable better checking 6...of course it also depends on how tight you make your seat straps to the seat kit...too tight locks you in, too loose could cause problems in case of ejection.  Gotta be Goldilocks and make it "just right"

You're forgetting the most important difference from a r/l cockpit to VR - peripheral vision.  Pilots do not have to turn their bodies nearly as far in order to get their EYES on 6 o'clock, compared to where your head needs to be in VR for being able to see the same space behind the aircraft.   Sitting in a hard chair, you can shift your hips/etc just a small amount, and be able to crank your neck/head to about 4 oclock, and your eyes can do the rest peripherally.  Just watch some videos of pilots doing this, and their helmet/head is never, ever, pointed at 6 oclock.

The thing with VR is that peripheral vision can't be used to "cheat" the head position - you want to see 6 oclock in VR, you have to point your head pretty much closer to dead 6 in order to do so.  IE putting your head at 4 or so in real life would allow you to see behind your aircraft as well as having your head nearly dead 6 in VR does.

[Wraith_TMS]

...snip... Just watch some videos of pilots doing this, and their helmet/head is never, ever, pointed at 6 oclock.

The thing with VR is that peripheral vision can't be used to "cheat" the head position - you want to see 6 oclock in VR, you have to point your head pretty much closer to dead 6 in order to do so.  IE putting your head at 4 or so in real life would allow you to see behind your aircraft as well as having your head nearly dead 6 in VR does.

This well-known video seems to lend credence to this. 



However, I do wonder if/to what extent hi-gee maneuvers impact or impede swiveling one's head/neck/torso much further than seen here?  The pilots in the linked video appear to be pulling very hard gees while trying to keep eyes-on.  Swiveling further likely directly correlates to G-load(?), but I have no first-hand experience on that.   A video game environment obviously can't reproduce that pressure on a body, VR or not. Bottom line, I'm not sure what the video proves... but it gave me a chance to post air combat fun with neato jets.   

PS: combat starts around 2:30 mark

FWIW, 

[Bizman]

--- putting your head at 4 or so in real life would allow you to see behind your aircraft as well as having your head nearly dead 6 in VR does.

Wouldn't that be "easily" achieved by a wider screen inside the goggles in a similar manner that is used for the ultra-wide curved monitors? I understand that it would require a much better resolution which in turns adds a huge load to the video card. But theoretically...

[terrydew]

You're forgetting the most important difference from a r/l cockpit to VR - peripheral vision.  Pilots do not have to turn their bodies nearly as far in order to get their EYES on 6 o'clock, compared to where your head needs to be in VR for being able to see the same space behind the aircraft.   Sitting in a hard chair, you can shift your hips/etc just a small amount, and be able to crank your neck/head to about 4 oclock, and your eyes can do the rest peripherally.  Just watch some videos of pilots doing this, and their helmet/head is never, ever, pointed at 6 oclock.

The thing with VR is that peripheral vision can't be used to "cheat" the head position - you want to see 6 oclock in VR, you have to point your head pretty much closer to dead 6 in order to do so.  IE putting your head at 4 or so in real life would allow you to see behind your aircraft as well as having your head nearly dead 6 in VR does.

I agree that the eye movement and peripheral vision is the real difference between rl and vr. Question could AH have a view that would simulate the eye movement so that when looking in any direction the view would shift X degrees. Not sure what X would be but I would think there is data available. I think this would get us as close as current tech allows. When good eye tracking and wider fov get here it wouldn't be needed.

I agree that adding any accelerated movement would be a mistake and be a step back from rl which vr is attempting to simulate. The real problem is folks with vr feel they are at a disadvantage to the 2d folks which is probably true. As vr gets more popular which it will, maybe consider a vr only arena where none of the visual "tricks" work for anyone?

Terry

[hitech]

I agree that the eye movement and peripheral vision is the real difference between rl and vr. Question could AH have a view that would simulate the eye movement so that when looking in any direction the view would shift X degrees. Not sure what X would be but I would think there is data available. I think this would get us as close as current tech allows. When good eye tracking and wider fov get here it wouldn't be needed.

I agree that adding any accelerated movement would be a mistake and be a step back from rl which vr is attempting to simulate. The real problem is folks with vr feel they are at a disadvantage to the 2d folks which is probably true. As vr gets more popular which it will, maybe consider a vr only arena where none of the visual "tricks" work for anyone?

Terry

It may be possible to implement head relative view keys, I.E. left is left from your current head position,not left from the plane. But I am wondering if you request is trying to solve a nonexistent problem. I.E. you can already use view keys.

HiTech

[Kanth]

I think that might be even more disorienting then using hat back relative to the plane. I use the hat all the time with no view orientation issues as it is.

[Gman]

I think curved VR display lenses would be the only real solution in terms of making VR perform closer to real life at least so far as simulation gaming goes and how views work.  Right now if you use your peripheral vision inside a Rift/Vive you're just looking at black plastic housing, and that's the problem, as in reality you don't have plastic housing there, you're seeing another 30 or 45 degrees or more in terms of your head position, thanks to your eyes. 

I doubt that we'll see larger/curved VR lenses anytime soon, for now the best we can get IMO is what HTC has done, incorporate a hat/kp view system along with VR in order to at least make checking 6 and other angles easier, since the VR headsets are limiting and make checking 6 actually more difficult than reality due to the peripheral thing and some other issues.

I too use the hat views in VR without any disorientation, mainly just the hat back/check 6, I'd say 99 percent of the time that's the only bit of "help" my view needs while playing in VR.

[Randy1]

When I use trackIR, I can  look back, do something like a high yo-yo or clover leaf for ground attack and never lose control. Using VR, I often stall in the same type maneuver while looking back.

Now if I can keep the red in the front 180 degrees, the head movement is perfect and VR's advatange in hitting your target is a huge plus.

[1stpar3]

For me, I didn't really like the "LOOK BACK" button. It worked just fine, just didn't like the dramatic view change. I do howerver use a "look back Right and LB Left". Why? When I get to as far as I can comfortably stand turning in my seat, say to the left, I hit my look back left button. I have it set on head placement just a bit further to left. Its not as far as I could see with look back only, but will cover to dead 6!  Beyond that even,  IF I center my head forward before button push. So I don't have a confused brain at the button push, its more of a just a bit further push/ when head turn is approaching my max comfort level. I don't even notice it when I hit hat switch now. Its a small jump as far as starting degree at button push to to right most stopping point of view after button push. Not sure how to describe it, hope you get what I am saying. Say for instance I can cover Front 0 degrees to left to 270 before I get a bit in comfortable, hit MY button LKBK Left. It puts me at just a few degrees past 250 is and covers to 170 or so depending how much further I twist from the 270 starting point of my headturn? For me it works just like I would have used in a TIR profile. It seems perfectly natural to me no nausea at all. 

[Mister Fork]

I think curved VR display lenses would be the only real solution in terms of making VR perform closer to real life at least so far as simulation gaming goes and how views work.  Right now if you use your peripheral vision inside a Rift/Vive you're just looking at black plastic housing, and that's the problem, as in reality you don't have plastic housing there, you're seeing another 30 or 45 degrees or more in terms of your head position, thanks to your eyes. 

I doubt that we'll see larger/curved VR lenses anytime soon, for now the best we can get IMO is what HTC has done, incorporate a hat/kp view system along with VR in order to at least make checking 6 and other angles easier, since the VR headsets are limiting and make checking 6 actually more difficult than reality due to the peripheral thing and some other issues.

I too use the hat views in VR without any disorientation, mainly just the hat back/check 6, I'd say 99 percent of the time that's the only bit of "help" my view needs while playing in VR.

+1 - yep, I find that using the left and right views enough and in some planes the 6 view via HAT is useless (i.e. Corsair and Hellcat) where a side hat view and then I can look around left-up and behind from those views.  No disorientation either.

[terrydew]

It may be possible to implement head relative view keys, I.E. left is left from your current head position,not left from the plane. But I am wondering if you request is trying to solve a nonexistent problem. I.E. you can already use view keys.

HiTech

I agree that you can use the view keys but a relative shift I think would be much more natural. The view keys work but at least for me it takes brain time to readjust and understand what you are looking at. I was hoping that a smaller relative shift would reduce that effect. However it could be the same and we won't know unless tried?

Thanks for considering
Terry

[Randy1]

For me, I didn't really like the "LOOK BACK" button. It worked just fine, just didn't like the dramatic view change. I do howerver use a "look back Right and LB Left". Why? When I get to as far as I can comfortably stand turning in my seat, say to the left, I hit my look back left button. I have it set on head placement just a bit further to left. Its not as far as I could see with look back only, but will cover to dead 6!  Beyond that even,  IF I center my head forward before button push. So I don't have a confused brain at the button push, its more of a just a bit further push/ when head turn is approaching my max comfort level. I don't even notice it when I hit hat switch now. Its a small jump as far as starting degree at button push to to right most stopping point of view after button push. Not sure how to describe it, hope you get what I am saying. Say for instance I can cover Front 0 degrees to left to 270 before I get a bit in comfortable, hit MY button LKBK Left. It puts me at just a few degrees past 250 is and covers to 170 or so depending how much further I twist from the 270 starting point of my headturn? For me it works just like I would have used in a TIR profile. It seems perfectly natural to me no nausea at all.

I have been experimenting with a similar setup but use the "Look Left" instead of the "Look Back Left".  It is hard to get the head position correct so you looking as far back to the 6 as you can but it does seem to smooth out the looking left with the VR then hitting the hat switch to "Look Left" to give you a good 6 view.

[N95KF]

You lose peripheral vision when wearing goggles though, so just make believe you are wearing aviation goggles lol.

Who said WWII was easy and/or comfortable??  Just be glad you dont have to worry about freezing to death or losing oxygen from frozen drool.