A perspective from a new player on payment/player numbers

[Wiley]

Nugget. There is already a game that has a main arena with a rotating plane set called Warbird. You should check it out and see how well that idea works.

Wiley.

[Ack-Ack]

This presumes each player does not incur any cost to HTC.  That is not realistic.

Again, there is no way we are going to use Paysafe and pay those absurd merchant transaction fees.

I shudder to think what Paysafe's penalty fees are for invalid charges and charge backs.  My company only uses payment vendors so we don't have to keep a player's credit card information in case we get hacked, more to cover our behinds than anything else because some of those vendor fees (like Paysafe) are outrageous.  Another thing we noticed when we switched to outside payment vendors was an increase of fraudulent charges.

[Zoney]

Hell, if this was on steam and had this Axis vs Allies MA which I hinted at previously, i would get all of my friends to play this and would advertise this everywhere.




But why i even write this? Because i always liked to play flight sims, and today there are virtualy none, Aces High is probably one of few last arena sims that is still alive, why not breath a breath of fresh life into the o'l gal, make it available to wider community and then some ?

So, let me see if I have this straight, I am easily confused.

You like playing Aces High, so I must assume you have found some way to pay for it.

You have acknowledged the demise of games like this and don't want to see Aces High go away.

After playing these games you are going to advise HiTech on how to make this game bigger, even though you have just acknowledged the fact that this game has a very long shelf life the way it is run currently, leading us to conclude that HiTech really does know what he is doing.

I appreciate your suggestions but the random throwing out of numbers by you with absolutely no facts to support them gives me pause.

Ok, I got it now, moving on

[Ramesis]

How many additional arenas would be needed to accomodate an additional 1000 players? How would you delineate and manage them fairly and for the long-term health of the game? What do propose HTC does with the large cash injection? In what direction do you propose they develop? Do you suggest HTC becomes more volume-based in philosophy? What percentage of existing, long-term players would be alienated? How do you propose to convert instant gratification, competitive-focussed newcomers to become long-term players? Do you alternatively support a simplification of the simulation to compress the learning curve? Is there a set of conventions all things must converge towards in order to remain successful?

+1 

And to add to shidas response above... what would happen to HTC in the long run?
Suppose with the injection of money, Steam starts dictating to Dale what he could and could not do
with the game
Seems to me that just such a scenario was the demise of AW 

[nugetx]

, however on a metalevel I was trying to question if you thought perhaps there is also an upper limit to AH player numbers before it loses its character, individuality and distinctiveness. Sure player numbers are slightly low at present, but this game has outlasted an awful lot of competitors.

Upper limit IMO depends on the map size. If everyone would be crammed into one spot it would not be fun, but if the map is big enough with a lot people then it is no problem.
However if you mean if the game loses its thing by having a lot of players, i don't think thats possible..... the more players for online games the better for players, because it will live longer.

Have you heard of a motorcar company called Morgan? Interesting parallel.

That's the first time i hear about it.... but I'm from the other side of the world

Nugetx I like your concept but my first impression is it would be hard to manage and administrate (code wise)

thx, i have no idea about the technical stuff though

Nugget. There is already a game that has a main arena with a rotating plane set called Warbird. You should check it out and see how well that idea works.

Yea I know Warbirds is dead, but Warbirds is ancient compared to Aces High, the graphics, flight model and damage model are like from 1994.

You like playing Aces High, so I must assume you have found some way to pay for it.

I played the free trial

You have acknowledged the demise of games like this and don't want to see Aces High go away.

true

I appreciate your suggestions but the random throwing out of numbers by you with absolutely no facts to support them gives me pause.

Just giving examples

And to add to shidas response above... what would happen to HTC in the long run?
Suppose with the injection of money, Steam starts dictating to Dale what he could and could not do
with the game

Well, looks like Steam is a definite no, but steam does not dictate things to developers, they only distribute the game.

[nugetx]

btw here is some Q & A from steam

1. Does Steam only accept games from major publishers, or will you take a game from an indie developer?

Your game doesn't have to come from a big name studio, as long as it's fun we'd love to see it.
2. What do you look for when accepting games for Steam?

Going forward, we’re putting the choice into the hands of customers through Steam Greenlight. You can find about more about Steam Greenlight here.
3. Who sets the price for my game on Steam?

Pricing is very title specific, and we've got a lot of data and experience to help you decide on what the best price is for your title. We'll work with you to figure out pricing.
4. What is your revenue split?

We don't discuss our revenue split publicly. Once your game goes through Steam Greenlight, we'll get to those details.
5. Do the steam royalties apply before or after VAT/country specific taxes?

Taxes are removed before calculating royalties.
6. What is the common payment interval and can we group transactions to minimize banking fees?

We make monthly statements and payments.
7. What other fees come out of my revenue share?

There are some specific adjustments made depending on such things as fraud and returns and these are outlined more fully in our distribution agreement that we will send to you if your game is going on Steam. We do not make deductions for marketing or bandwidth.
8. Do you require exclusivity for titles you sell on Steam?

We think you should get your game in front of as many people as you can, therefore we do not require exclusivity on titles.
9. What are my marketing options on Steam?

We do not sell any of our marketing on Steam. We will work with you to determine the best marketing plan for your title.

http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/FAQ.php

[nrshida]

That's the first time i hear about it.... but I'm from the other side of the world

We've got this thing now called t'internet.

Upper limit IMO depends on the map size. If everyone would be crammed into one spot it would not be fun, but if the map is big enough with a lot people then it is no problem.

The mapping between quantity and quality is far from an injective function. That's a persistant dogma.

The Morgan Motor Company story is interesting and relevant because it also rejected this universally accepted path and focussed on smaller size, quality and, in that case, traditional values in spite of severe criticism from industrial / analytical experts that they would not survive without modernisation and expansion. In 1990 they were told by a famous expert in a televised documentary that they were doomed. Guess what, their waiting list is over 3 years per order, they still use hand tools and some of their jigs date back to the 1930s 

Perhaps Aces High is just (nearly, at the moment) the right size and quality too.

[Ack-Ack]

nugetx also doesn't factor into the resources and cost for HTC that it would take to put the game on Steam.  He doesn't take into consideration that HTC would have to develop and support two different versions of AH.  Patches/updates would have to be created for the non-Steam and the Steam version and there is also the factor of accounts.  Players would not be able to migrate their non-Steam version of AH to the Steam version, if they wanted to play on the Steam version the player would have to create a brand new account, losing years of progress (perks, achievements, etc) in the process.

It is not as simple as throwing the game on Steam and then expect the masses to roll in through the door.

[BuckShot]

Steampunk!

[nugetx]

nugetx also doesn't factor into the resources and cost for HTC that it would take to put the game on Steam.  He doesn't take into consideration that HTC would have to develop and support two different versions of AH.

I'm aware of that, however while the main game is done, I don't think the cost for maintaining the Steam version is that much compared to potential new customers profit.


 

Patches/updates would have to be created for the non-Steam and the Steam version and there is also the factor of accounts.  Players would not be able to migrate their non-Steam version of AH to the Steam version, if they wanted to play on the Steam version the player would have to create a brand new account

If players can play together, there is no real need for current players to migrate to Steam. Steam is to draw in new players and/or ease of life enhancements.
Unless HTC would make it so, so you can play with your account on steam, which I think is possible also.

It is not as simple as throwing the game on Steam and then expect the masses to roll in through the door.

It is not, but then again it is .

[Ack-Ack]

I'm aware of that, however while the main game is done, I don't think the cost for maintaining the Steam version is that much compared to potential new customers profit.

With a small development team, it will most likely be a burden and a drain of resources.


 

If players can play together, there is no real need for current players to migrate to Steam. Steam is to draw in new players and/or ease of life enhancements.
Unless HTC would make it so, so you can play with your account on steam, which I think is possible also.


It is not, but then again it is .

It's not HTC's decision to allow merging of a non-Steam account with a Steam account, it's Valve's. If you have a non-Steam version of the game and want to migrate your account (including all the perks, achievements, etc) over to the Steam version, you can't as per Valve's policy.  This I know because I helped on getting two of the online games the studio I work for has on Steam.

[Skuzzy]

I'm aware of that, however while the main game is done, I don't think the cost for maintaining the Steam version is that much compared to potential new customers profit.
<snip.

So we add a million customers at a profit of -x.xx percentage (that's right...minus) per customer.  I may not have a degree in economics, but the math on that looks suspect as far as "potential new customer profits" goes.

[nugetx]

So we add a million customers at a profit of -x.xx percentage (that's right...minus) per customer.  I may not have a degree in economics, but the math on that looks suspect as far as "potential new customer profits" goes.

I'm not sure I get it, are you saying that if you put Aces high on steam even with new players you will have -x.xx profit % ? 

How is that possible? Shouldn't the sales from the game be higher than what steam takes and other prices combined ?

[ImADot]

I'm not sure I get it, are you saying that if you put Aces high on steam even with new players you will have -x.xx profit % ? 

How is that possible? Shouldn't the sales from the game be higher than what steam takes and other prices combined ?

Sounds to me like HTC's margin is pretty slim and Steam's cut would be more than that margin.

[nugetx]

Sounds to me like HTC's margin is pretty slim and Steam's cut would be more than that margin.

But if steam takes 30% from sales, so that leaves 70% to developers, are the server running costs higher than what would be from the 70% ? Does steam want more from HTC than 30% ? If yes, then it is understandable, but otherwise the profit should always be +x.xx %

AFAIK there is only one time fee of 90$ to put a game on steam greenlight,


btw steam is removing greenlight in spring and doing something new

'A better path for digital distribution

The next step in these improvements is to establish a new direct sign-up system for developers to put their games on Steam. This new path, which we’re calling “Steam Direct,” is targeted for Spring 2017 and will replace Steam Greenlight. We will ask new developers to complete a set of digital paperwork, personal or company verification, and tax documents similar to the process of applying for a bank account. Once set up, developers will pay a recoupable application fee for each new title they wish to distribute, which is intended to decrease the noise in the submission pipeline.

While we have invested heavily in our content pipeline and personalized store, we’re still debating the publishing fee for Steam Direct. We talked to several developers and studios about an appropriate fee, and they gave us a range of responses from as low as $100 to as high as $5,000. There are pros and cons at either end of the spectrum, so we’d like to gather more feedback before settling on a number.'