Terrain idea, comments and advice needed

[oboe]

Can you guys comment on whether this terrain would be workable for the MA?  Its a 10x10, 250 sq mi terrain, but its not real world scale.  In actual fact its closer to 1/5th scale.

I've built a couple giant real world maps by piecing together screenshots of Google maps; one covering Western Europe through Russia and Eastern Med, and another Australia and the SW Pacific up through Japan and China.   I built a see-through colored pie chart with 3 sectors, and use this to overlay sections of the Earth at different scales to try to find an area that make work for an MA map.  I'm looking for a mix of water and land, with roughly the same land area and coastline length between the 3 countries.  Each country must be able to attack the other two countries both by land and by sea.   I've found something close with the Black Sea area, and just wondering if you guys think this real-life terrain can be adapted to work for the MA.   Unlike a fictional terrain, I can't make everything equal between the 3 sides, but I can try to adjust things to make it as equitable as possible.



I've only included the strats and ports for now, thinking if I can't make it work at this level there's no point in adding fields and bases.  Its really interesting to me  to think about what strategies might be offered by the asymmetric geography.  I'm thinking I might be able to use the Crimean Peninsula as the center of map three way VBase tank battle area, but I don't know how to protect the VBases from capture or destruction by marauding CVs patrolling the Black Sea.   There are some interesting mismatches in naval strength in the Med vs the Black Sea, but I'm unsure how this would play out in the MA.

[ghostdancer]

First thought off the top of my head is you have placed some fleets in areas that won't work since they can't be to close to land or have way points within a certain distance of land. The fleet by Istanbul won't work in that small body of water. Also the fleet to the NE of Crimea, the farthest to the NE, might not work in that position.

Other thought is the ammo factors (and some other strats) might be to close to the front line. They are only 1 sector away from start positions and could end up quickly by enemy lines and pounded continuously. I probable have them 2 - 2.5 sectors back from the starting front lines.

[oboe]

OK, so no passage from the Black Sea to the Med even if I widen the channels beyond there actual scale width?

[ghostdancer]

I would have to go back and check what the min distance if but I know the TE can be really, really touchy. I usually place fleets several miles off shore. So, nope unless you want to make that passage somewhere 1/4 to 1/2 sector wide to be safe. Anything less you could place them but players could get a this way point is to close to land message when trying to navigating.

[ghostdancer]

Oh and as for making the three sides equal what you really need to focus on is that each side has the same number of bases / type of bases. Then follow the other rules for base placement. Remember if you look at mindano the land size was not equal but the amount of bases were. Plus, you want to make sure that each have a couple avenue of attack. Otherwise one country might have a defensive advantage but even that is doable as long as not to extreme (again look at Mindano).

This is the best way to approach this to since if you are thinking of using this for a MA map you will need to show it to HTC at some point to see if they are good with the concept. If it is custom's arena map then you don't have to worry about side balancing.

[bustr]

You have a scale problem, the country Georgia is 26,911 sq mi. Your country of Georgia is only 2.5 sectors wide. A 10x10 sector terrain is 62,500 sq mi. If you scale this to a 20x20, and use the center in the sea. You will be able to clip out the center 10x10 which will be just about the land mass and water described by the 2nd ring out from the center. As for real world scale, the 10x10 will still be too small, but the clip out will sort of fit. The more real world you try to do a terrain for the Melee arena, the more unfair at least one of your three countries will be. Look at mindnao.

[oboe]

Its about 1/5 scale to the real world.  That's intentional to get enough of the right shaped land mass into 10x10.  If I go much bigger, then the Mediterranean starts to dominate the SW quadrant, and it becomes a very different war for the two countries that border there vs the third, landlocked country.  Also had to do this to try to keep the length of the land borders close between the three countries.

I think changing the Turkish straits between Black Sea and Aegean to 1/4 to 1/2 sector wide might be too big a change from reality though.  I wonder about navigation difficulties among the Greek isles, too. 

[ghostdancer]

Yes navigating the Greek islands could be a problem. You could either wipe out the small islands to make the area navigable OR move the fleet and port over to Crete. I would think of your terrain as pseudo real since players won't really be complaining that "hey there is Mykonos on this terrain!" Plus, at 1/5 size most of the small greek islands will just be specks in the sea.

Turkey will definitely have a defensive advantage with two short land fronts. Just not sure how much. Mindano's western noodleula has a huge advantage but in the Baltic terrain the defensive advantage is not as much for the country that has the smaller front. You might also be able to even out the advantage Turkey advantage by putting in some not historical islands with bases on them to widen the front on both sides.

[oboe]

Thanks for your helpful comments, guys.  I'm in no rush and I have so much to learn, I'll just keep plugging away and post changes here.  Right now simply developing the overall design/concept.  My goal is to create a balanced, playable MA terrain based on real world geography as much as possible, and in locations not too far removed from where real world combat in WWII took place (so no Antarctic or North/South America terrains).

Here is Rev 1 of the BlackSea:



I've widen the Bosphorus and Dardanelles, and the strait into the Sea of Azov in the Black Sea.  A design principle I have in mind here is that fleets from every country should theoretically be able to navigate through all open water on the map.  I don't mind if the Turkish Straits are a navigational challenge, or near suicide after I get the shore batteries installed, but it must be possible in theory for the Russian (Yellow) fleets to reach the Mediterranean Sea.

I've altered fleet starting locations to give them more room, and moved a Turkish CV from the Eastern Med back into the Black Sea.  With Russia's fleet concentrated inthe Black Sea, and Green's swing CV in Istanbul able to move either to the Med or stay in the Black Sea there are opportunities to create mismatches.  I'm not sure how that would play out.

I've also rotated the shaded territory pie chart CCW a few degrees, to create a longer land borer between Green and Orange.  This also gives Green half of Crete, which maybe OK as a constant point of friction between the two?  I would envision a green VBase on the western end of Crete.  Crimea will be a natural point of friction between Green and Yellow, and Georgia between Yellow and Orange, as well as the Eastern Black Sea.

I've moved the strats further back from the lines, although again Turkey is a challenge because of the Eastern Med and the ability for Green to get a CV fleet pretty far into Orange's backyard.  But it seems odd to have almost no strats in most of Turkey.

Thanks help, <S>

EDIT: Coupla other items - Bustr talked about doubling the size of the region to 20x20, but its my understanding that smaller maps work better for the current population (<200) in the MA.  Is that correct?  There are a number of 512mi/side maps but they seem to be special events or AvA maps?

Also, is it possible to create rivers wide enough for PT boat traffic?  I'd like the Dneipr and the Don Rivers to support spawning of PT boats and be passable by boat for long reaches.  But that might mean bridges are necessary, and they must be crossable.  I know they are in towns, but can you span rivers with crossable bridges outside of towns, in the hinterlands?

[ghostdancer]

Yes, with the lower numbers in the MA these days you should do a 256x256. You could also do a 128x128 map for the MA possibly. It would further condense the fighting. The 512x512 maps are for Special Events and the AvA. I create 512x512 for the Special Events because the fighting will not be over the map but simulating real campaigns and such. Thus the larger map gives the CMs more options of what campaigns they can simulate. When we were maxing the MA then there was a reason for the 512 maps but these days it is just to much empty space for the MA. It diffuses fighting instead of promoting it.

I still might recommend getting rid of all the small islands in the Aegean to help with fleets navigation. Or maybe keep one or two and have  base on them.

[oboe]

Thanks GD, I plan to remove some islands in the Aegean, but probably will hold off until I have a better understanding of ships and navigation in the terrains.  I hop I can leave enough to keep the character of the Aegean.

SO a 10x10 square map, each square is 25.6 mi per side?   

My next step is the introduction of major airfields.  I realized its not so much the distance between the strats, its the distance to the strats from the enemy airfields that is important.   

With each step I have to be willing to go back and change the layout based on new information and advice I get.

I hope to have spectacular mountains like the ones Bustr makes in the Caucasus region. 

[bustr]

Do yourself a favor and play with scale for a bit on your terrain. Pull a line of the raise hill 2000ft\sec tool about 8 miles long up to 5000ft in the center tapering at the ends. Set your brush to say 3-4 miles diameter. Give it rock color to make looking at it easier by pulling the line of your mountain on level ground painting a line of rock. Then raise the spine down the center of what you just flat painted and shape it into a mountain.

Then look at it from 30,000ft which is about normal for viewing something 8miles long and you will feel like the scale is too small. Except if you had a field a few miles from it and you F3 from the tower, it will look enormous. Decide on scale early and stick to it across the board as your standard on the whole work space. My current terrain I'm not allowing mountains on the islands to be higher than 7K without a really good reason. Very few islands say 60Miles long have mountains much over 6,000ft. New Guinea is several hundred miles long with it's highest peaks at 16,000ft. But, it is 3-4 times larger than other islands in the Solomons region. On main lands when you have mountain ranges with mountains say 12,000-15,000, that's measured relative to sea level. The rocks you are looking at pointing up into the sky may be sitting on 5000ft of land already.   

[BowHTR]

Isn't there already a Black Sea terrain? Not trying to say that oboe is wasting his time, the name of the terrain just sounded familiar.

[ghostdancer]

Yes there is blksea and blkseaw by me but they are built for Historical game play and are 512x512 maps. They can't be used for MA play since they don't meet the requirements for the MA at all (bases between 16 miles to 25 miles apart, equal amount of bases and strats between three countries, etc.). So a blkseama or mablksea is a worthwhile en devour.

[BowHTR]

Yes there is blksea and blkseaw but they are built for Historical game play and are 512x512 maps. They can't be used for MA play since they don't meet the requirements for the MA at all (bases between 16 miles to 25 miles apart, equal amount of bases and strats between three countries, etc.). So a blkseama or mablksea is a worthwhile en devour.

Though I remembered one. Anyways, back at it oboe!