Question about PTO scenarios

[oboe]

I've gone through the past scenarios listed in AH Events (what a great site, thanks you guys!) and compiled a list of the scenarios, their location and time frame, and combatants.

What I find curiously missing are any early-to-mid War scenarios in the SW Pacific - New Guinea and the Solomons.  You know, the Cactus Air Force on Guadalcanal, and on New Guinea- the AAF and RAAF around Milne Bay battling the Japanese based at Wewak.

We now have the plane set and the terrains for this setting and I believe it was a fairly even-slugging match until the Allies got the upper hand. 

In early 1943, both the F4U-1 and Ki.61 were introduced into the operations area.  Prior to that it would've been the IJNs A6M2s and 3s and the JAAFs Ki.43s against the USMC's F4Fs and the AAFs P-39Ds and the RAAF P-40Es.  We have Betty bombers, and TBMs and B-25s.

Is this not considered a well-matched plane set?

Thanks for your thoughts!   

[Brooke]

It is a good match of plane set.

I like it a lot, and we were thinking of Milne Bay being in the list.

But . . .

Swareiam and I think it would be hard to fill these days.

Also, we have done in the past a fair number of Zero vs. F4F or P-40, do have a current choice that is again Zero vs. F4F, and very few past scenarios with Corsairs and Hellcats.

I very much want to do a Cactus Air Force (or other Guadalcanal action) one day, however.

[Krusty]

Not to put too fine a detail on the Ki-61s, but the version we have is rather late in the run with the nose mounted cannons, but also a lot of extra armor and weight. The early Ki-61s with 2x 12mm and 2x 7mm guns then 4x 12mm were notably more nimble and capable of dogfighting harder than their later brothers.


The problem with a lot of these early SEA matchups is that we don't have that many for the Japanese. We just have the Ki-43-II and the A6M2/3. Historically they had greater skilled pilots, larger numbers of force concentration, but older more obsolete planes that just couldn't compete. Let's be honest, nobody wants to fly an A5M Claude against the Flying Tigers. We don't even have the Ki-43-I which still saw a lot of action. Then there's the earlier bombers like the G4M Nell and Ki-21 Sally bombers that were very common prey earlier in the war.

The problem doesn't get too much better as you fast forward time. Okay, so we've got the Ki-43-II but that's it. We still don't have the Ki-61-Ia (western nomenclature for simplicity's sake) or -Ib, and we don't have the Ki-44 which was much faster but not as maneuverable. We don't have the Ki-45, either (having sub'd a bf110c-4 for it in Rangoon). No J2ms. No D4Ys...

So the problem is while it's "better" it's still always a lopsided affair against the Japanese forces, and it's also a side that historically outnumbered allied forces and still lost. So put 2 and 2 together and it's just not as fun when you're trying to design a scenario with a 50/50 split (or near enough).

[Brooke]

zeros vs. P40, p39, f4f is balanced.

Against f4u, f6f, p38, p47, you need to add later war japanese stuff.  Dont do that and it isnt balanced for our mix of pilots and conditions.  Do that and it is nicely balanced and fun.

[TequilaChaser]

I wouldn't mind if you had to opt for using the ki84, Niki, etc to help the Japanese side, if it would get us a PTO scenario in the 1943/1944 time era of the war....

[oboe]

As much as I'd like to believe the Ki.61 is well-matched against the F4U-1, DoK's aircraft evaluation pages dont' bear this out.  The Corsair is 40-50 mph faster consistently and all altitudes, and climb rate with WEP is almost the same, yet the Corsair can also out turn the Tony when it gets its big flaps out.  With the F4U's reputation for good roll I'm sure it can out roll the Tony also.  The only advantage the Tony has is a harder hitting gun package, while the cannon ammo holds out.

Not sure how different it would be if the Ki.61-1a or 1b were in the game - turn and climb performance would improve but it would lose the armament advantage most likely.

So, it appears 1942 is the only year the US and Japan were fairly well-matched in aircraft - beyond that the American advantages of speed and durability pull further and further ahead.

So a Guadalcanal scenario would most likely pit the Cactus Air Force (Wildcat, Dauntless, Avenger, P-39D) against combined IJN/JAAF forces (A6M2, Val, Kate, Ki.43, G4M Betty).   These forces seem pretty evenly matched to me. 

Brooke are you saying that PTO scenarios just don't draw as many participants as ETO, MTO, or Eastern Front scenarios?   And that's why we dont' run them often?

I'd really like to see a late '42 early '43 New Guinea scenario setting some day too - P-39Ds, P-40Es, P-38Gs and B-25s (or Bostons?) against A6M2/3, Ki.43, Ki.61 and G4M Bettys.

Q: Does anybody know of a resource where I can see all the air campaigns of WWII and the order of battle (aircraft, units) for each campaign?   I would spend days pouring over that...

[Krusty]

Bear in mind that the Ki-61 first saw service in later 1942 but it was really a 1941 design. There were engine and development issues that delayed it, but it is essentially designed with the inspiration of the Bf109E-7.

Against 1943 aircraft of the USN, 1 v 1 it is at a disadvantage compared to all of them. It does have 20mm cannon but so does the Zero, and the Zero maintains its edge better (and turns better) most times. Once you start stacking it up against F4Us then the tide has turned significantly against the axis. With teamwork, tactics, cooperation and proper winging, it can be quite lethal. However, if the USN side has those same qualities it just doesn't end well.

Don't get me wrong, it's a plane I rather like. It's just an underdog in most categories.

[FBKampfer]

Yeah, I'm not convinced late war PTO events are even possible to balance without an ungodly numbers disparity.


I mean let's be frank, while the Ki-84 is really the only credible match for the F4U's we have right now, everything else is kind of crap compared to it.

And that's completely ignoring the (historically accurate) difficulty the Japanese had with the bombers.


In every LW scenario, the Japanese will find it difficult to force a fight, they will find it nearly impossible to disengage, they will face difficulties with escorting and interception of bombers.

The Japanese military was not well equipped, and it's always going to show its head in special events.

[Brooke]

Yep, I don't see the Ki-61 as being as good as F4U's and F6F's.  That's more for Ki-84's and N1K2's.

The allies will have bombers, and the Japanese will be defending, though, so you have to take that into account.

Consider Big Week as an example.  P-47's are 75+ mph faster than the German planes at 30k.  But it is balanced.  Part of that is because the US has to protect bombers.

The N1K2 is about the same speed as an F6F (some alts a bit faster, some a bit slower) until you get to 24k, where it is 20 mph slower.  The Ki-84 is mostly faster than an F6F until you get to 24k, where it is about same speed.  The Ki-61 is 40 mph slower than an F6F at 24k.

Even the A6M3 is is only 70 mph slower than the F6F at 24k -- not as big a speed disparity as German planes and P-47's at high alt.

Also, all of the Japanese planes have two cannon except for N1K2, which has 4 (like a FW 190), unlike in Big Week where the 109's have 1 cannon (unless you take gondolas, in which case they are over 80 mph slower than the P-47 at alt).

So, a lot of these things we have to take into account.

For example,  I flew Ki-61's in frame 4 of The Pacific War against B-29's escorted by P-47's and P-38's, and we did just fine.

[Zoney]

Setting aside the match up comparisons for a bit.....................

I am of the opinion that our game is filled with lots of allied aircraft fans, lots of Luftwaffe fans, but fewer Japanese aircraft fans.  This leaves the Luftwaffe squads to fly the Japanese aircraft and is therefore less popular than other match ups.

[ROC]

I am of the opinion that our game is filled with lots of allied aircraft fans, lots of Luftwaffe fans, but fewer Japanese aircraft fans.  This leaves the Luftwaffe squads to fly the Japanese aircraft and is therefore less popular than other match ups.

Agreed.  I personally favor the Pacific theater and am a huge fan of the Japanese planes.  It's always hard to fill up the pac events.

[Brooke]

Brooke are you saying that PTO scenarios just don't draw as many participants as ETO, MTO, or Eastern Front scenarios?   And that's why we dont' run them often?

Yes.  Like ROC, I really enjoy PTO events, and they were a major part of WWII, but overall Japanese plane set isn't as popular, and so we can't run a lot of them, or attendance drops off a lot.

If we have them once in a while, we can do it.

[Devil 505]

Yes.  Like ROC, I really enjoy PTO events, and they were a major part of WWII, but overall Japanese plane set isn't as popular, and so we can't run a lot of them, or attendance drops off a lot.

If we have them once in a while, we can do it.

Not only are the Japanese planes not popular but in the case of the total early to mid PTO plane-set you are dealing with stigmas against every plane (U.S.= can't fight / Japanese = dies easily) 

[puller]

I too love the Japanese planeset and Pacific theater in general...Not being able to get turnout is always a damned shame...

Also.....this and the voting for October scenario thread are taking attention off the fact we have a scenario in 18 days that hasn't filled up yet...Though I believe the amount of pilots that has signed up so far is greater than last few...

[Devil 505]

Also.....this and the voting for October scenario thread are taking attention off the fact we have a scenario in 18 days that hasn't filled up yet...Though I believe the amount of pilots that has signed up so far is greater than last few...

Yes. I believe that the current scenario schedule is over-saturated. we have our scenario guys preparing for the upcoming 12 hour event. There's no time for in depth discussions for tuning the designs here before The Hardest Day is run.  And once it passes that will only leave 5 weeks to recruit and plan for the next one to be run October.

It's too soon.