Design discussion for October Scenario (Target Rabaul)

[StokesAk]

The writeup lists alt cap for bombers and downwind at 24k.

Excellent, I must have missed that in the write up. Hopefully this will be enough to concentrate the fight a bit more.

[AKKuya]

I am not concerned that B-25's are too tough for the Japanese.  I'm concerned the other way.

I am planning on flying one of those B-25H's and being extremely rough on the Japanese pilots. 

[Fencer51]

Now Fencer, no need to get all curmudgeonly.

I know a group of P-38 lovers who have been wanting this ran going 10 years back.. I think that covers it.  Heck it's why I have so much research material on it and had all the airfield info for the terrain.

[branch37]

I know a group of P-38 lovers who have been wanting this ran going 10 years back.. I think that covers it.  Heck it's why I have so much research material on it and had all the airfield info for the terrain.

Same here, except our planes are blue and the wings bent. 

[TequilaChaser]

I haven't had much time to join in on the discussion...

I appreciate the fact that Brooke is putting in an enormous amount of time and effort to please everyone...simple fact is that no matter how hard you try to, Brooke, there is always going to be people who just want to complain that "it's inaccurate" or "it's not exactly historical"....not realizing that if you were to take out the Niki's and Frank's and only used A6m's and some Ki-61s that it would cause the actual Scenario event see players quit, stop showing up as each frame moves forward...

I applaud you for thinking of the axis and allowing the  Niki and Ki84s to participate, in an effort to give the axis side a better chance of being able to put up a respectable defense and ability to have fun and entertaining enjoyment....instead of just not showing up at all....

Where the hell was everyone's complaints back when Brooke put this thread up for discussion?

Brooke, ROC, Fencer and some others have been designing, creating, researching, etc... and building/hosting these scenarios for well over 25 years or more....

Is Greatly appreciated!

I know that they know exactly what it takes to make it where both sides of the scenario have a fighting chance to win each frame...

Please save me a F4U slot.... Not sure where I will be when registration opens with all these trips from NC to FL and back....( Thank you  Brooke, for your post regarding my family )

TC / Johnny

[branch37]

I think we could be closer to historical accuracy with just A6m and Ki-61s. The tony is an equal match and more for the hellcats and corsairs. Maybe keep the one squad of zeros and just have 3 squads of Ki-61s. Not only were the 84s and N1Ks not there, they're not needed to balance the setup imo. Either way it will work out fine.


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[Krusty]

The Tony is in no way an equal match for corsairs or hellcats. It's not harmless, but it is outclassed severely in every regard compared to the F4U-1A, and most ways to the F6F-5.

EDIT: To add to that, I hesitate to add the Ki-84, because it is leaps and bounds beyond the A6Ms and Ki-61s that it's filling in for. IMO the Ki-84 will be the uber plane to beat in the matchup, and that doesn't fit. The N1k2 I can see -- its performance and handling are more in-line with the Ki-61. I also think that the A6M5b, while slower, is quite capable and a lethal enemy due to its cannon setup and its maneuverability. I think it's really undrerepresented in the setup and should play more of a role.

In the spirit of balancing the gameplay, I understand certain compromises must be made. However, I think you've pushed the Japanese side too far to "end of war" and left all the actual planes out of it that were there. Might I suggest that the compromise goes both ways? Push the US planes backwards a little and ease off on how many Ki-84s are in the list? Bring those Ki-61 and A6M5b numbers up, but drop the P-38Js down to P-38Gs perhaps. Drop those F4U-1As down to F4U-1s, and maybe only have one squadron of them. Swap in a second squadron of the slower F6F-5s. I'm not saying to swap them out for FM-2s or anything, but we can ease back on the US side rather than ramping everything up on the Japanese side.

What do folks think of that? Because I love the Ki-84. I really do. It's just the best end-war plane in the Japanese planeset. I really don't think it belongs in a Rabaul lineup unless in limited numbers. Currently? It's the majority of the roster.

[Guppy35]

I first saw this image as a teenager, so it's been 40 years.  It's captioned "Headhunter Lightnings bracket a 345th B-25 on the way to Rabaul."

I've wanted the chance to do this off and on ever since.  The cartoon Headhunters were born in an AW Scenario "Operation Cartwheel" way back when, and in the transition to AH I brought them with me. 

Give me the chance to do this and I'll be happy



BTW those are early model 38s and a strafer C model Mitchell

[Guppy35]

Just because

[Arlo]

Drop those F4U-1As down to F4U-1s, and maybe only have one squadron of them.

[Krusty]

You realize the -1A is nearly 20mph faster than the -1, right? The problem is balance for evenly-sided matchups. The -1A breaks that balance. So, drop it down to the -1, and it evens things out quite a bit.



And yes, it still has a significant advantage at all alts to the Ki-61 and A6M5b, but not by nearly as much as the -1A. The -1 and the -1A fly very similar. Same as the P-38G and -Js. The Js have the same milpower speed curve, just no WEP. What we're doing is balancing things. It's far better to ease back on the -1A and the -Js than it is to put in the late war uber monsters in such major numbers.

[FBDragon]

Krusty, Brooke, no matter what you do someone is just gonna complain. I not a fan of flying jap planes but being a axis flyer I'll fly whatever you give us!!!!

[Guppy35]

You realize the -1A is nearly 20mph faster than the -1, right? The problem is balance for evenly-sided matchups. The -1A breaks that balance. So, drop it down to the -1, and it evens things out quite a bit.


And yes, it still has a significant advantage at all alts to the Ki-61 and A6M5b, but not by nearly as much as the -1A. The -1 and the -1A fly very similar. Same as the P-38G and -Js. The Js have the same milpower speed curve, just no WEP. What we're doing is balancing things. It's far better to ease back on the -1A and the -Js than it is to put in the late war uber monsters in such major numbers.

So far we're talking about downgrading Allied birds.  Thoughts on Axis?  Again I'm all for using 38Gs and 25Cs so don't misunderstand me as I want it more accurate.  And no the 38G and J are not the same bird, speaking as a P38G fan

[Krusty]

I've love it to be accurate, too, but there's only so much you can do. We're not matching real levels of force, or situations as much. We're not flying to one side's strengths and against another's weaknesses like in the real war (where the short range of F4Us was a greater problem, for one example).

It's just a thought. A way to tone down the Ki-84 use. Much as I love that plane it's a real tough swallow that it's going to be the primary ride in a 1943 Rabaul setup. It's like subbing a P-51 for a P-40.

[Arlo]

So far we're talking about downgrading Allied birds.  Thoughts on Axis?  Again I'm all for using 38Gs and 25Cs so don't misunderstand me as I want it more accurate.  And no the 38G and J are not the same bird, speaking as a P38G fan

Guppy, I'm seeing a double standard from the axis leaning side. In the claim of historical accuracy they want the late war planes on the IJ side eliminated. But they don't actually want the historical Allied planes. If historical accuracy is the issue then they can't have it both ways. If balance is the issue then cutting both plane sets to earlier war planes doesn't make any more sense than beefing up the IJ plane set so all players can enjoy a Pac scenario with their favorite rides. I'm not aware of an AH Japanese historical squadron, at this time. VF-17ers may see a Pac event like this come around once every couple of years (surely as rare as the Headhunters might). To start seeing the Axis players first complain that their plane set is too unrealistic/beefy/non-historic just to then complain that the Allied set is too beefy/realistic/historic and complain that the F4U-1A needs to be changed to the -1 because the 1A is too uber is just starting to sound like rules lawyering the JRs out of their ride for spoiler purpose.

If I'm wrong and there's an Axis squadron that wants to participate in this event with their historical ride .... then, by COD, let them. Let the Allied AH squadrons do the same. I've suggested a balancing answer that allows for such.