Why so much animosity?

[flippz]

I am with devil on the air to air combat, I do gv on occasion when the spawns are close and its up close and personal fighting, much like planes I like to turn fight and stay close.  the air combat in here has gone to garbage! you cant find a 1v1 fight to save your life, and I don't mean I fly into 5 enemy planes and expect 4 to stay out.  I do expect when I am 8k in a spit and run across another spit,yak,la c2 or the likes that is about coalt for them not to turn and run like there hair is on fire and the left the coffee pot on at the base when they took flight.  but that rarely happens and I mean rarely.  at best I get to chase him back to his ack or 2 or 3 of his friends to get a fight.  I say that to say this gvs are a nuicance when a field is under attack/attacking a field.  if my dar bar is the slightest bit bigger no one will up a plane there go to move is the gvs (boo) and vice versa if the others dar is slightly bigger than ours no one on our side ups watched this on many case last night (3-6 pizza debackle map). 
I joined about a year and 4 months ago to fly and fight airplanes, i think thats why most of us came here.  i just hate to see that side of the game dying so quickly.
p.s. this post nothing to do with gv dar and i dont hate gvs just want more things with wings to shoot at me!

[JimmyC]

I'll fight ya flippy!!
 

[flippz]

<S> sir you among the 1%

[wil3ur]

I love to fly into a gaggle of goobers.  For the most part, they never work together, all trying to get the kill so they can look cool when they land, and more often than not I can get quite a few before they get me.  Even better when your tree wingman, or enemy bullets killshot your pursuers as well.

I find if you stay below 10K and offer up your 6, you can normally get the more timid to try an BnZ you until they lose advantage.  If you can roll them and get guns on, the whines and PMs of despair and hacking make it even more fun.  Getting in a fatgirl B38 also makes people do all sorts of dumb things to try and kill you.

You just gotta play to their ego and let them think they're the aggressor...   

[molybdenum]

1) I don't see ANY difference between Dar that allows you to find aircraft and Dar that allows you to find GV's.  Either one can be used to find a fight or avoid it.  The Dar around your friendly base for air cons, pinpoints EXACTLY where the aircraft are, even so much as showing the direction they are traveling and when they are turning.  The Dar bar for air cons gives you a general idea of where they are, if not specifically where they are within a given sector.  There is no pinpoint location dar for GV's.  To me, this does seem to be a reasonably fair middle ground.  Not perfect, nothing will be perfect for everyone with such a diversity of opinions.

2) I think GV'ers who proclaim that they just want a fight with other GV'ers is frankly disingenuous.  If that were the case you guys could form a nice friendly club, open your own custom arena and just go there and duke it out, but you don't.  I think you want to be in the main arena and get your name in lights for everyone to see, including seen by the aircraft pilots who I believe 95% of don't even care you are there, nor do they interact with you in any way.

3) I find it quite interesting that GV'ers have a derogatory name for aircraft that bomb them, but there really isn't a catch all derogatory name that I see used all the time for the reverse, players who shoot and kill aircraft from ground based guns and vehicles.

4) Personally, and this is just my wish, I would like to see players that GV, fly aircraft and interact with other aircraft.  I will NEVER understand why so many choose to spend so much time in GV's.  I look at it this way......."YOU" have just graduated from Officer "school".  Your commander says, "Would you like to be a pilot, or drive GV's?".  I just cannot imagine there would be many men who dreamt of driving around on the ground rather than flying, in the sky, in a three dimensional world, instead of two.

5) Havermyr.  Please come back.  I truly miss playing the game with you.  You were certainly one of the greatest challenges I had when you were intent on making a bomb run, and I was intent on finding, and then intercepting you.  We had fun did we not?  Let the GV thing get worked, you can still play and I know it will get worked out.  things will change, and then change again.  Mistakes will be made, folks will be happier and others won't.  This is a community, come play again.

Havermyr is my friend

1) My overriding issue with the GV dar is that it tells bad guys that they are there, even were they to take infinite pains not to make their presence known. That kills so much of the strategic aspects of the game that addicted me to it!
In a previous post waystin explained why, as a GV bomber, he felt the GV dar was an important addition to the game. I almost never bombed GVs (never got around to taking the time to learn how to do it well) so his perspective opened my eyes a bit. But we all have our biases, and I think his colored his perspective, even as mine colors mine. My own feeling is that base flash, town flash, and shore battery flash narrowed the search area down enough to make a GV only slightly less difficult to find than the GV dar currently does. (And that GV dar actually inhibits fights, unless you consider A20 vs T34 a fight, but I've made my argument on that score ad nauseum already).

2) That's probably true (the name in lights stuff); but the problem with the rest of your hypothesis is that you can always find fellow GVers in the MA to fight. It would be hard to recruit enough people to make a custom arena fight anything but boring fairly quickly? Just my guess.
Additionally, one of the compelling things about AH to many is belonging to a team  (Bish, Nit, Rook). A custom arena makes that part of the game irrelevant.

3) I bet if you come up with a good one it will be universally embraced!

4) Not everyone plays the game for the same reasons than you do. You like flying at high alt and pouncing on bad guys in your 190 or 152 or 262 and what happens with the map is irrelevant to you, but whatever I did had to help my team or it was meaningless to me. Hence all the strat runs I flew, even though they consumed a lot of time. Being a bomber pilot was my identity, but often driving a wirb or an m3 helped my team more, so I did that.

5) We had fun. And it is a community. But the GV thing shows absolutely no signs of being worked out.  The game is progressing in a direction that excludes strategists like me and there are other communities out there.

But you are still my friend. <S>

[waystin2]

1) My overriding issue with the GV dar is that it tells bad guys that they are there, even were they to take infinite pains not to make their presence known. That kills so much of the strategic aspects of the game that addicted me to it!
In a previous post waystin explained why, as a GV bomber, he felt the GV dar was an important addition to the game. I almost never bombed GVs (never got around to taking the time to learn how to do it well) so his perspective opened my eyes a bit. But we all have our biases, and I think his colored his perspective, even as mine colors mine. My own feeling is that base flash, town flash, and shore battery flash narrowed the search area down enough to make a GV only slightly less difficult to find than the GV dar currently does. (And that GV dar actually inhibits fights, unless you consider A20 vs T34 a fight, but I've made my argument on that score ad nauseum already).

2) That's probably true (the name in lights stuff); but the problem with the rest of your hypothesis is that you can always find fellow GVers in the MA to fight. It would be hard to recruit enough people to make a custom arena fight anything but boring fairly quickly? Just my guess.
Additionally, one of the compelling things about AH to many is belonging to a team  (Bish, Nit, Rook). A custom arena makes that part of the game irrelevant.

3) I bet if you come up with a good one it will be universally embraced!

4) Not everyone plays the game for the same reasons than you do. You like flying at high alt and pouncing on bad guys in your 190 or 152 or 262 and what happens with the map is irrelevant to you, but whatever I did had to help my team or it was meaningless to me. Hence all the strat runs I flew, even though they consumed a lot of time. Being a bomber pilot was my identity, but often driving a wirb or an m3 helped my team more, so I did that.

5) We had fun. And it is a community. But the GV thing shows absolutely no signs of being worked out.  The game is progressing in a direction that excludes strategists like me and there are other communities out there.

But you are still my friend. <S>

I use a Hurricane IID it does not carry bombs it uses cannons.  Just to clarify. 

[molybdenum]

I use a Hurricane IID it does not carry bombs it uses cannons.  Just to clarify.

Apologies, you're right, I should have said "as a GV hunter," not "bomber." The distinction matters: it's a lot more sporting to hunt a GV with cannon.

[Mano]

Get rid of the GV dar.......bad idea.

[Devil 505]

Keep the GV dar, great idea.

[fuzeman]

Sorry not reading 5 pages and maybe it's been said but

Lets not have any animosity in here!!! After all, Its the War Room. 

[molybdenum]

Sorry not reading 5 pages and maybe it's been said but

Lets not have any animosity in here!!! After all, Its the War Room. 

"Angst" might be a better word than animosity, now that dundee is apparently gone for good.

I'll synopsize (word?) the 5 pages for you in 5 sentences.

Fighter pilots mostly love the GV dar because they think GVs hide too easily in AH3 and hope GVers will now fly planes vs drive GVs now that GVing is less fun.
The A20 ilk totally love it because they have early warning of a target, and a narrowed down search area.
Gvers and strategists almost universally hate it because it makes bombing relatively defenseless GVs relatively easy and limits offensive creativity.
I actually left the game because of it, and so have several others. It's unhistoric and changes part of the game in a fundamental way.

And for my 5th sentence, nice riff on Dr. Strangelove. 

[CAV]

To me the fix is to easy......

I think the ground radar is to gamely to be in a combat simulation, but if you're going to have it, tie it to the radar tower.  If the tower is up you have both ground and air dar....

radar tower down....  You have neither.

CAV

[Oldman731]

To me the fix is to easy......

I think the ground radar is to gamely to be in a combat simulation, but if you're going to have it, tie it to the radar tower.  If the tower is up you have both ground and air dar....

radar tower down....  You have neither.

Agreed.  Except you also have to harden the radar towers.  It's not like we don't already have enough suicide radar shooters.

- oldman

[eddiek]

To me the fix is to easy......

I think the ground radar is to gamely to be in a combat simulation, but if you're going to have it, tie it to the radar tower.  If the tower is up you have both ground and air dar....

radar tower down....  You have neither.

CAV

Just playing the devil's advocate here:  So if the GV dar is tied to radar tower, and when the dar tower is taken down, the defending GV guys lose their dar.
But do the attackers still have GV dar?  Unless the bases are close enough for there to be overlapping dar bars, the attackers should lose it too, right?

Makes me no difference.....I've been through the various gameplay changes introduced over the years.  I'll stick around and see what happens, regardless.  Not trying to be oppositional or argumentative.  Just trying to see both sides of your idea.
Because it is a game, there are, always have been, and always will be limitations.  We see things on a 2D screen when our MkI eyeballs are far more capable of picking things out in RL than what we are able to see on a screen.
My own thoughts are that until HTC can find a way to code in GV tracks, blast effect from the main guns firing, and other "realistic" things that one would see on a RL battlefield, the GV dar and icons are a needed compromise.  The issue, from what I've read, is how to code them in without causing framerate issues.  Just like the wish for planes at high alts to leave contrails.........I am all for that.  Would increase the immersive effect, and be more "realistic".  What I find unrealistic is 20 and 30 ton tracked vehicles driving around on "soft" ground like we have in the arenas, leaving no tracks, and the GV crowd is fine with that.  It's been called cloaking, invisibility, stealth, etc......justified by those whose main play is in GV's so that their "defenseless" GV don't get bombed by defending aircraft. 
So, the GV's can ID aircraft from 6K or more away, determine plane type, country, and distance....yet they remain invisible til what?  1K?  1.5?
I think the GV dar was and is needed, at least until some of the limitations can be overcome.  Until GV's leave tracks on soft ground, leave a visible exhaust haze (for those whose engines were known for smoking while running), the blast effect from the main guns are modelled (watch wartime footage of tank cannon firing.....the dust and smoke hang around and give your position away), the GV dar is a good compromise.  It doesn't pinpoint a GV's exact location, but it gives a rough idea on their movement.
If you want realism, ask for full realism, not just selective realism.

[BBQsam]

+10 Who don't like BBQ  Well unless it's shooting at you    Oh and snake tastes like chicken, if you can find the sneaky bastages miss flying with ya Coppr