Design discussion for Fjord Fury (June 2018 Scenario)

[Spikes]

Oh, and scoring is important, too -- you are right.

It is possible, though, to have balanced scoring and a scenario that isn't balanced in its fun, though.

For example, let's say you have a scenario where only one bomber out of 16 is going to make it to target, and you compensate for that by having very high points for that one bomber that gets through.  That might result in balanced scoring, but it would be no fun for bomber folks.

We want to design for balanced play, and then put balanced scoring on top of that.

You don't base scoring off of how many bombers make it or don't make it. That would lead to an extremely high amount of variables that is impossible to predict or compute. You figure out what is reasonable for something to destroy and use that as your baseline for the rest of the stuff.

[Brooke]

You don't base scoring off of how many bombers make it or don't make it.  . . .You figure out what is reasonable for something to destroy and use that as your baseline for the rest of the stuff.

Figuring out what is reasonable involves estimating how many bombers will typically make it.

At some point, you have to make a judgement on how it will go.

For example, you make a design with P-47's, B-17's, and 109G's for 80 people.  Do you make it (a) 20 p47's, 15 b17 formations, 45 109's?  Or (b) 30 p47's, 10 b17 formations, 40 109's?  Or (c) 35 p47's, 10 b17 formations, 35 109's?  Or (d) 35 p47's, 15 b17's, 30 109's?  Or . . . ?

What is reasonable scoring for (a) is not necessarily reasonable scoring for (d), and so on.

They are inter-related and subject to judgement.

[swareiam]

After reading through several of the questions up for discussion, I believe that the Allies should be issued four more fighters based on the current design.

+2 - P-51Bs
+2 - Spitfire XIVs

I think this will add a bit more balance based on a couple factors.

1) The Axis DAR range is quite extensive. Fighting back early attacks will require more hardware for the Allies to operate with in order to get bombers to targets.

2) The Axis is operating aircraft with an enormous amount of firepower. In order for the Allies to keep pace without "Gunning Up"... It makes sense to add a few more airframes to cope with the more high performance canon birds of the Axis.

Again, I believe this action will add more balance to the event.

Best Regards,

[TequilaChaser]

After reading through several of the questions up for discussion, I believe that the Allies should be issued four more fighters based on the current design.

+2 - P-51Bs
+2 - Spitfire XIVs

I think this will add a bit more balance based on a couple factors.

1) The Axis DAR range is quite extensive. Fighting back early attacks will require more hardware for the Allies to operate with in order to get bombers to targets.

2) The Axis is operating aircraft with an enormous amount of firepower. In order for the Allies to keep pace without "Gunning Up"... It makes sense to add a few more airframes to cope with the more high performance canon birds of the Axis.

Again, I believe this action will add more balance to the event.

Best Regards,

Good observation and reasonable adjustments


TC

[perdue3]

After reading through several of the questions up for discussion, I believe that the Allies should be issued four more fighters based on the current design.

+2 - P-51Bs
+2 - Spitfire XIVs

I think this will add a bit more balance based on a couple factors.

1) The Axis DAR range is quite extensive. Fighting back early attacks will require more hardware for the Allies to operate with in order to get bombers to targets.

2) The Axis is operating aircraft with an enormous amount of firepower. In order for the Allies to keep pace without "Gunning Up"... It makes sense to add a few more airframes to cope with the more high performance canon birds of the Axis.

Again, I believe this action will add more balance to the event.

Best Regards,

109K-4's will struggle to kill bombers and quite frankly, they should not be tasked with that to begin with. So, you are looking at A-8's (pigs at alt) and Dora's. I am not so sure if adding more fighters, especially the Spit XIV is a solution. Plus, the cannons are for bomber killing. The Allies have no bombers to kill, so equalizing firepower is not an issue. Just my opinion, though. At least it is only 2.

[Brooke]

Summary of numbers suggestions so far:

100% of comments so far are that Lancs will get annihilated with current numbers.  I am 100% heeding that and am OK with increasing relative strength of allies to solve it.

Folks who gave concrete number suggestions are as follows.

Oboe
Recommendation:  +6 Lancs; or -8 LW fighters; or a combination.
Reason:  Figuring that half of LW force will tie up allied escort and other half will each shoot down 2 Lancs, aiming for 50% of lancs to return to base.

Swareiam
Recommendation: +2 P-51B's, +2 Spit 14's.
Reason:  Axis radar range is large and feels that allies will need more fighters.  Also, axis firepower is large and feels that a little bit more allied firepower would be good to balance.

I will also offer a recommendation.

Brooke
Recommendation:  +2 P-51B's, -2 109K's.
Reason:  Less swing than Oboe, similar to Swareiam, doesn't add more cannon power to allies, keeps registration total the same.

[Brooke]

What do folks think?

[TequilaChaser]

That seems fair enough Brooke

[perdue3]

Summary of numbers suggestions so far:

100% of comments so far are that Lancs will get annihilated with current numbers.  I am 100% heeding that and am OK with increasing relative strength of allies to solve it.

Folks who gave concrete number suggestions are as follows.

Oboe
Recommendation:  +6 Lancs; or -8 LW fighters; or a combination.
Reason:  Figuring that half of LW force will tie up allied escort and other half will each shoot down 2 Lancs, aiming for 50% of lancs to return to base.

Swareiam
Recommendation: +2 P-51B's, +2 Spit 14's.
Reason:  Axis radar range is large and feels that allies will need more fighters.  Also, axis firepower is large and feels that a little bit more allied firepower would be good to balance.

I will also offer a recommendation.

Brooke
Recommendation:  +2 P-51B's, -2 109K's.
Reason:  Less swing than Oboe, similar to Swareiam, doesn't add more cannon power to allies, keeps registration total the same.

Taking fighters away from the Axis is also not a solution, in my opinion. Of those three, Redtail's is the best. Personally, I feel the Allies should be fine fighter vs. fighter. Lancasters will be easy to kill regardless of how many Allied fighters there are. The only thing more fighters will do is limit how many Axis fighters survive. If that is the plan, then add more Allied fighters. If you are looking for a way to make the Lancaster more durable and increase its survivability, I suggest replacing the Ta 152 with either 190A-8 or 109G-14.

[oboe]

I think Perdue's suggestion is a good one, and if you combine it with Red's you'd have:

Allies:  +2 P-51Bs, +2 Spit XIVs
Axis: remove/replace Ta-152s with 109G-14s or 190A8s.

Its a little bit more historical, but I understand one of the goals of the scenario was to bring out the late-late War birds for use in a scenario, so people might not be keen to lose the Ta-152s.

[KCDitto]

You don't base scoring off of how many bombers make it or don't make it. That would lead to an extremely high amount of variables that is impossible to predict or compute. You figure out what is reasonable for something to destroy and use that as your baseline for the rest of the stuff.

Interesting, that would make victory based on how well the escorts do at protecting the Lancs.   

[Wiley]

Interesting, that would make victory based on how well the escorts do at protecting the Lancs.

Personally, I do not think that's a very swell idea.  Having too many points for survival tends to alter gameplay in ways I'm not tremendously fond of.

It's the Allies job to blow stuff up.  It is the Axis' job to try to stop that from happening.  With bullets.

Wiley.

[puller]

Personally, I do not think that's a very swell idea.  Having too many points for survival tends to alter gameplay in ways I'm not tremendously fond of.

It's the Allies job to blow stuff up.  It is the Axis' job to try to stop that from happening.  With bullets.

Wiley.

This 

[Spikes]

Personally, I do not think that's a very swell idea.  Having too many points for survival tends to alter gameplay in ways I'm not tremendously fond of.

It's the Allies job to blow stuff up.  It is the Axis' job to try to stop that from happening.  With bullets.

Wiley.

And that is exactly how that scoring system works. Allies get points for bombing things. Axis get points for killing bombers.

[perdue3]

You cannot account for escort kills. Always treat fighter vs. fighter as equal. There must be a point that the designer feels is reasonable where dead bombers = dead objects.