Design discussion for Fjord Fury (June 2018 Scenario)

[oboe]

Yes, one more land target - it adds some flexiblity for the RAF and uncertainty for the LW.   NO the LW should not have more than 50 mi of radar range.

It is so tough to answer the other questions- so much depends on the situation.  But as a starting point, I'll guess that in an engagement against an escorted Lancaster bomber force, 1/2 the intercepting force will be engaged and tied up by the escorts, while the other half gets through.  And each of those late-War LW fighters that gets through will down an average of 2 Lancs, one before the bomb drop and one after.

So with an attacking force of 48 Lancasters and 32 defending fighters - 16 intercepting fighters get through and down 32 of the 48 Lancs, but 24 Lancs are able to drop on target.   

If you want 50% of the bomber force to survive, I recommend increasing the size of the Lancaster force to 22 from 16, or reducing the size of the LW fighter force from 32 to 24, or some combination of the two.

Just a starting estimate for discussion.   I am not sure how reasonable my assumptions are but you have to start somewhere.

[swareiam]

Swareiam and Ditto, you two good with changing one group of P-51's to P-51B's?

Yes... That is good Brooke 

[swareiam]

I think we should add one more ground target for the Lancs.  This makes it more sure Lancs won't run out of bases to go after in the case that the Lanc groups are going after different targets.

Ditto, Swareiam, you guys OK with that?

I recommend any one of a63, a67, or a69.

Good on additional targets 

[swareiam]

Yep, it is basically:

6 109G-14 with gondolas -or- 6 109K-4's.

G-14s

[KCDitto]

Sorry for not OPINE ing here but I have been very busy with real life crap.

If you are going to say one way or the other then I want K-4 for dealing with D ponies

I will use the FWAs for LANC killing and TAs for scouting and if you add MOSSIES I will have the DORAS turn that plywood into splinters.

But I am OK so far with this set up, historical or not 

 lets have some fun

[Brooke]

OK, did the following:

-- Kept the 109 group as K's.
-- Changed one group of P-51's to P-51B's.
-- Added one more land target.

Writeup:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQsSNeYBqsg5Eh_tyKJtUG3uaT-87AlRQxGgagu2r5QWtpmNoGk1yQHJLU3kM0iBcUNk-f4fmImmxyB/pub

[Brooke]

Some items remaining:

-- Numbers/ratios OK?
-- Scoring OK?
-- Max setting for SectorCounterRange is 64 miles.  Ditto and Swareiam, you guys OK with 64 miles instead of 50?

[Brooke]

How about these for group designations?

P-51B's -- 315 Sq.
P-51D's -- 65 Sq.
Lancs -- 9 Sq.
Lancs -- 617 Sq.
Spit 14's -- 41 Sq.
Tempests -- 3 or 33 Sq.
109K's -- 10/JG5
109K's -- 13/JG5
190D's -- IV/JG5
190A's -- V/JG5
152's -- JG301

Or we could have one of the LW groups be JG102.

[Devil 505]

109K's -- 10/JG5
109K's -- 13/JG5
190D's -- IV/JG5
190A's -- V/JG5

I'm sure you mean 5./Jg5. as "V" would mean 5th Gruppe, which never existed. Remember to never swap between Roman and Arabic numeral when talking about Luftwaffe units as each has a specific purpose. Roman=Gruppe and Arabic=Staffel(squadron).

Here's a sample breakdown:

First Gruppe Jg 5 - I/Jg5

in First Gruppe you have the following staffeln

1./Jg5
2./Jg5
3./Jg5
4./Jg5

[Guppy35]

How about these for group designations?

P-51B's -- 315 Sq.
P-51D's -- 65 Sq.
Lancs -- 9 Sq.
Lancs -- 617 Sq.
Spit 14's -- 41 Sq.
Tempests -- 3 or 33 Sq.
.

Please don't use 41 for the Spit XIVs.  They were never anywhere near Norway and I've spent way too much time with their history and the actual pilots to not have that drive me crazy

[Brooke]

Please don't use 41 for the Spit XIVs.  They were never anywhere near Norway and I've spent way too much time with their history and the actual pilots to not have that drive me crazy

41 was at least near Denmark or something and did some high-alt escort of Lancs, but OK -- as long as you pick a number for me.

[Brooke]

For the LW groups, I was just going by what was written in the material Guppy posted where it says "The principal German fighter organizations were IV and V JG5".  Then it goes on to describe particular engagements with 10/JG5 and 13/JG5.

I know the roman numerals vs. arabic numerals mean different levels of the group, but they didn't give any roman numbered ones for the 190's, so I just picked group level.

How about this:

10/JG5 -- K4's
13/JG5 -- K4's
14/JG5 -- D9's
JG102 -- A8's
JG301 -- 152's

[Devil 505]

For the LW groups, I was just going by what was written in the material Guppy posted where it says "The principal German fighter organizations were IV and V JG5".  Then it goes on to describe particular engagements with 10/JG5 and 13/JG5.

I know the roman numerals vs. arabic numerals mean different levels of the group, but they didn't give any roman numbered ones for the 190's, so I just picked group level.

How about this:

10/JG5 -- K4's
13/JG5 -- K4's
14/JG5 -- D9's
JG102 -- A8's
JG301 -- 152's

Jg 102 was a training unit based in Central Germany. Simply changing the A-8's to 5./Jg 5 would be correct.

[Brooke]

Jg 102 was a training unit based in Central Germany.

Yes, but later, according to what Guppy posted "Norway was, comparatively, a quite backwater of the European war, and Lister received many battle-weary but highly experienced Luftwaffe fighter pilots for short periods. . . . Additionally, JG102, an operational training wing, had training field for pilots in Norway, and towards the end of hostilities this organization was often involved in interception.  So the calibre of German pilots encountered might range from the novice to the very proficient."

Simply changing the A-8's to 5./Jg 5 would be correct.

I'll do that, though, if you like instead.

[Devil 505]

Yes, but later, according to what Guppy posted "Norway was, comparatively, a quite backwater of the European war, and Lister received many battle-weary but highly experienced Luftwaffe fighter pilots for short periods. . . . Additionally, JG102, an operational training wing, had training field for pilots in Norway, and towards the end of hostilities this organization was often involved in interception.  So the calibre of German pilots encountered might range from the novice to the very proficient."

I'll do that, though, if you like instead.

Yes that would be better.

I did more digging on Jg 102 and they were mostly based in Denmark, with occasional detachments to central Germany. I have yet to see any mentions of detachments to Norway. Any engagements with the RAF over Norway would have been in the southern portion of the country. Given that the author of the magazine article provided by Guppy does not understand the Luftwaffe unit naming nomenclature, I'd take anything else pertaining to the Luftwaffe in that piece with a large grain of salt.