Design discussion for Fjord Fury (June 2018 Scenario)

[swareiam]

Guppy, would it work to let individual pilots pick the B or D, so there might be a mix of B's and D's in that group?

B's are faster at 30k, but I'm a little concerned about their lower firepower.

Swareiam and Ditto, what do you think?

I say stay as close to historical a possible, always. This especially if it will pull in more pilots that want to fly that aircraft.

[Brooke]

I'm assuming P-51D's will be easier to fill than B's, but there might be a group of guys who want B's.

Guppy, if we make a group of P-51B's, do you feel you can fill the group?

[1ijac]

-- Lancs are not gunned as well as B-17's or B-24's, and some folks feel Lancs catch fire easily.  Do folks think with this setup we will average out to about 50% of bombers getting back to base (which is my idea of good balance)?

With all that fire power on the axis side, I think the lancs are sitting ducks.  I believe your estimation of 50% is high.

one-eye

[Guppy35]

I'm assuming P-51D's will be easier to fill than B's, but there might be a group of guys who want B's.

Guppy, if we make a group of P-51B's, do you feel you can fill the group?

Yes.  Oboe?  Red? BFOOT1?  Willing to fly 315 Squadron Mustang III in Oboe’s updated 315 skin? 

They did actually escort Lancs over Norway on one occasion in November 44
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[KCDitto]

OK,

a couple of interesting things here.

1. losing one squad of LANCS in favor of a squad of MOSSIES? Dive bombing? that would mean the single planes not the MOSSIE formations? That would reduce the bomb capacity. The idea here being the TALLBOY raids. Not sure I agree with that, but if there is a big demand for the MOSSIE then I am OK with it.

As far as mixed units, has that ever been done in a scenario before? I am sure historically there were mixed plane formations as newer planes came available or pilot preference?

SO 1 unit of P-51 B and D mix with 1 unit if Bf-109 G and K mix?

Also with the DAR settings out only 2 sectors, it gives allies plenty of options for trickeration and a need for axis scouts

[Guppy35]

 

OK,

a couple of interesting things here.

1. losing one squad of LANCS in favor of a squad of MOSSIES? Dive bombing? that would mean the single planes not the MOSSIE formations? That would reduce the bomb capacity. The idea here being the TALLBOY raids. Not sure I agree with that, but if there is a big demand for the MOSSIE then I am OK with it.

As far as mixed units, has that ever been done in a scenario before? I am sure historically there were mixed plane formations as newer planes came available or pilot preference?

SO 1 unit of P-51 B and D mix with 1 unit if Bf-109 G and K mix?

Also with the DAR settings out only 2 sectors, it gives allies plenty of options for trickeration and a need for axis scouts

The Mossies would be the Fighter bomber version, so singles. The ones going to Norway carried rockets and bombs to attack shipping.   There would be one group of 6 Mustang III which would be 315 as that is what they flew over Norway and another group of 8 51D Mustang IV which 19 and 65 Squadrons flew over Norway

I think Oboes point was by having attacks possible both from higher alt Lancs and low level Mossies means the LW can’t just mass up high for the Lancs as they have to be ready for Mossies also. 

[perdue3]

Brooke, I doubt any Lancasters will survive against anything later than 43 Luftwaffe. To put it simply, they are food.

[AKKuya]

In order for the Lancs at high altitude level to have a possibility of survival, there must be another bomber group that can dive bomb to force the LW in deciding both high altitude patrol and low altitude cover of both targets simultaneously.

Tactics and thinking one's opponent tactics will be and dumb luck decides the fate of the battle outcome.

[oboe]

I was surprised to read the suggestion about Mossies dive bombing but I suppose there's not much that plane can't or didn't do.   

Dan can count on me to fly alongside him in anything with wings and a prop, so '51Bs, sure.  I think 315 Sqd operated Mustang III exclusively through the end of the War after switching over from Spitfires.  So it probably shouldn't be a mixed group of Ds and Bs, they just had all Mk IIIs (in general I do like the idea of mixed groups as being more historic.)

Think the LW can field a full group of 6 109G-14s?   

[Brooke]

Guys, just to be clear, here is what we're deciding (not whether or not we have Mossies or get rid of Ta 152's):

-- Is the number of planes sufficient for balance?  If not, how should the numbers be tweaked and why?  I think balance is OK, but more opinions are welcome.
-- Is the scoring OK?  If not, suggestions with explanation of what a typical frame will score like (not just "I think scoring should be X" without any analysis of how a typical frame will go).
-- Do we turn one squad of P-51D's into P-51B's?
-- Do we let the Luftwaffe have a squad of gondola 109G-14's instead of non-gondola 109K's?  I'm not too keen on that.
-- Should the Luftwaffe have more than 50 miles of radar?  I think a bit more would be good.

Please focus on these things, as these are what need to be decided.  They will get decided within the next couple of weeks one way or the other.  If you want to weigh in on it, now is the time.

[Guppy35]

Yes a squadron of Mustang III, 315 Squadron RAF (Polish)

[Devil 505]

-- Do we let the Luftwaffe have a squad of gondola 109G-14's instead of non-gondola 109K's?  I'm not too keen on that.

Yes, let the G-14's keep the gondolas. The plane is a toilet compared to the Allied fighters. Don't handicap their pilots any more my forcing them to make skill shot kills only.

[Guppy35]

Yes, let the G-14's keep the gondolas. The plane is a toilet compared to the Allied fighters. Don't handicap their pilots any more my forcing them to make skill shot kills only.

So give em K4s then

[Brooke]

Yep, it is basically:

-- Do we let the Luftwaffe have a squad of gondola 109G-14's instead of non-gondola 109K's?  I'm not too keen on that.

6 109G-14 with gondolas -or- 6 109K-4's.

[Brooke]

Brooke, I doubt any Lancasters will survive against anything later than 43 Luftwaffe.

I think it can depend on the ratio of things.

To take two extreme examples, let's say there were 20 P-51's and 5 Lanc formations vs. 40 FW 190A-9's.  In that case, all of the Lancs would die every time short of target.  Let's say there were 20 P-51's and 40 Lanc formations vs. 20 FW 190D-9's.  In that case, a bunch of Lancs would survive to target.

What I try to do in bombing scenarios is choose the number of attacking fighters, number of attacking bombers, and number of defending fighters so that the defenders aren't overwhelmed and have their chance to kill a fair amount of stuff, but the bombers won't be totally wiped out all the time.  I try for middle ground.

The problem is that you can't calculate that perfectly and guarantee it.  The best I can figure is to look at past strategic bombing scenarios (Big Week, DGS, DGSII, BOG, BOWL, Final Battle, etc.) and look at various ratios of things that worked out OK, tweak it some for circumstances (like you might make them more accommodating to the bombers if you have Lancs instead of B-17's).