Author Topic: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design  (Read 12305 times)

Offline CptTrips

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2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« on: October 09, 2018, 12:30:49 PM »
Now, before the virtue-signalers swoop in to protect HTC’s honor, I am not intending this as an attack on HTC, or a demand that they change things one way or another.  A 3-sided vs 2-sided arena design is just an interesting game design question and I have an interest in game design, so I am merely intending a rational discussion of the topic as a concept, because I find it interesting.  This is a strawman argument.  Someone could convince me either way.  In the end, I suspect there is not one answer that is best for all player count scenarios.

I’ve never really had a problem with a 3-sided arena.  When you had 650 players regularly in the arena, I think it worked well.  But seeing so many people wanting a two sided design I’m beginning to question if the 3-sided design still works AS well when numbers are much, much lower than the hay-days.  I have begun to wonder if it worked well at the game’s peak for a reason different than Hitech assumed. 

As I understand it, Hitech’s argument has been by dividing the players into 3 teams means that mathematically each player has two enemy players to fight.  If you have 3 evenly divided teams that is arithmetically obvious.  However, it doesn’t consider spatial factors.  I have begun wondering if that has important effects that work against his assumption. 

In a ground war, planners have the concept of “straightening the line”.  This entails taking or releasing territory in order to create a straighter front line that reduces the surface area and allows a higher unit density per mile of frontage.

A thought experiment. Assuming idealized (i.e. not necessarily realistic) conditions. 
You have a 512 mi x 512 mi arena.  Assume you have 1000 players.  I know...work with me.   :D
Generally, the shortest lines you could achieve in a 3-sided war is is to divide the map like a pie chart with three fronts of ~300 mi length.  Each side has to cover two fronts.  Say they divide their force evenly across both fronts.  Each of the !300 mi fronts would involve 1/3 of the total player count.  With  1000 players that would create a ~1.11 possible-players-per-mile, or ~1.11 pppm.  ;)

If you went to a 2-sided war and ran the front diagonally across the map, you would end up with ~1.3 pppm.
 
If you went to a 2-sided war and ran the front horizontally or vertically across the map, you would end up with ~1.9 pppm.

So, a 2-sided war with a horizontal or vertical front provides 173% higher pppm density than a 3-sided arena.  I assume that ENY and other tools could maintain a 2-sided area as balanced as a 3-sided.  Even if it came down to only allowing new logons to go to a lower count side.

When we literally had too many players in an arena on a good night, a 3-sided war probably helped distribute the action more evenly to make full use of the map.

When you don’t have enough players, maybe it tends toward making the action feel “thin”.

Now implementation is a complete separate discussion.  Maybe they could create a test map and disable all planes and vehicles for one team and put all their stuff in one corner of the map and surround it with 1000 acks and just lay the other two sides out.  Just as a test for a week.  That might gather the data they need to decide if they ever want to make code changes to support two-sided arenas in a win-the-war environment. 

Ideally, you would want to be able to support both depending on the map design and the player count needs.

This has nothing to to with AvA or rolling plane-sets.

Food for thought.

 :salute

[edit]
Sorry. that should have been phrase a 2-sided design has 173% of the density of a 3-sided.  So 73% higher?  I have never been good with percentages.  Snailman???  But it is a higher density.  :cool:
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 01:15:45 PM by CptTrips »
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2018, 04:43:41 PM »
A three sided war takes a bit of the human nature out of the equation. With 2 sided wars you WILL have players always going for the "better" side. To many this will mean the side with a number superiority.

Forcing players to the lower numbered side is something you dont do. First your taking away the players ablity to "play" the way they want to. HTC has never be good at that and has alway striven to allow players to do what they want. Two it could/will split squads and that is one thing HTC has also pushed for, that social element of "hanging with your friends!". Three would be the ENY. This would be harder hitting and in force more often than not due to players either going to play "with their buddys" , or trying to get on the better team, be it numbers wise or the "mentality/spritial" wise. You cant count on players leaving both side at the same time so you would more than likely have a side imbalance more often than not.

Next, with 3 side you have more options. Some of those options are for players to AVOID fights. While most of us think this is just stupid, there are some players who want to play that way. Strat runs for fun, flattening a depot with a vehicle, milk running town in buffs, working on "achievements" and so on. As I said HTC like to let people do what they want. With a 2 sided war these players may have a hard time finding a quiet place to play.

As for the 3 sided war "not working" any more, why does it seem like when  the "sfma" map is up everyone seems to have a good time. You only get the typicle "you HOed" type complaints on that one. There are always fights going both air and ground and ENY is rarely a problem ..... during prime time anyway, while the other maps do have ENY issues. The problem is not enough players per square mile to generate good action. With the medium maps we have now, and the large ones that have been mothballed the action gets too spread out and falters easily.

Also, Air Warrior did great with 3 sided war as well, they had small maps, and small numbers.

The lack of players to cover the map is the biggest issue. More players or smaller maps would help things move right along much better than the headaches you would be building switching to a 2 sided war.

Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2018, 05:19:17 PM »
A three sided war takes a bit of the human nature out of the equation. With 2 sided wars you WILL have players always going for the "better" side. To many this will mean the side with a number superiority.

Someone just posted stats from the arena a bit ago where one side had as many as the other two sides combined.  Three sides doesn't seem to have had much effect on side balancing.   
In fact, I wonder if it has any effect at all. It seems that ENY (since so many complain) must be having a greater impact.  In fact, maybe it's perverse.  Neither of the two weaker sides has critical mass to turn the tide so some people just switch to the stronger.  If the two weaker sides had been combine, you would have had even numbers.  I can not see two sides doing worse.  And any mechanism that can balance 3 sides, can balance two.

I agree smaller maps help.  However I suspect they help not so much because you are reducing the volume, but because you are reducing the length of the fronts for a given number of players.  On a smaller map, the fronts are shorter because they are stretching across a smaller map.  Another way is to keep the map size the same and shorten the front by going 2-sided. 

And to be clear, I'm not saying 3-sides doesn't work, I'm just wondering if it is optimal.  Something can work pretty well, and still not be optimal.

A different genre, but I have played a lot of Battlefield the last couple of years.  They are two sided and have no problem keeping sides balanced.  They have some interesting mechanism that would be worth considering. 

Somewhere you are going to piss someone off.  Either with ENY, or forced side balancing. Pick your poison.  :cool:


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Offline FLS

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 05:50:55 PM »
I don't believe you understand the reasoning for 3 sides. Unequal sides are bad with 3 sides, with 2 sides they are worse. Given human nature in a sandbox format, 3 sides is optimal. In a controlled situation like a scenario, 2 sides is fine.

Offline SPKmes

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2018, 06:07:33 PM »
As Fuji said... two sides...although it sounds good will be more of a detriment in the end... three sides with ENY balancing, as has been shown doesn't help things either... well...it would if things were fair but if you have one side with big numbers and two sides sharing the same total number and each attacking the one high number side effectively the numbers are even...however they aren't as this usually causes the high number side to ignore one side and blitz the other...ignoring the third side...when they get the desired number they switch.

With the lower numbers in game these days...perhaps a different system.... that is front line bases only have eny, bases behind these are set as normal... sure defending with low eny planes may be hard...but really...those little suckers turn on a dime and are hard to hit... eny restrictions doesn't matter when the frenzy is on..but if you want you can up your prized D9 or 51 from a base back and come in to pick the pickers. or still run your missions of total domination (not a new thought...has been said before )Also maps that keep the front lines accessible...especially when we get low low numbers and strats are full up... some maps really don't help the lower numbers of your early hours strive for a take which in turn can start some dogfighting,GV action.

Places like the AvA work because the people who go there are self policing and are there for the fun action... It can not be done in the MA due to score whoring... most that go there deem this to be the ultimate prize fighting arena and as such lose all moral thinking.... it is all about me me me... nothing that a game developer does can combat that side of human nature....It does not matter what fail safes you put in place people will find a way to game the game to be the best (In their mind).... even if the best is ill gotten.... that side of things does not matter...
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 06:45:16 PM by SPKmes »

Offline Oldman731

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2018, 06:29:03 PM »
I don't believe you understand the reasoning for 3 sides. Unequal sides are bad with 3 sides, with 2 sides they are worse. Given human nature in a sandbox format, 3 sides is optimal. In a controlled situation like a scenario, 2 sides is fine.


Agreed.

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Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2018, 06:31:25 PM »
I don't believe you understand the reasoning for 3 sides. Unequal sides are bad with 3 sides, with 2 sides they are worse. Given human nature in a sandbox format, 3 sides is optimal. In a controlled situation like a scenario, 2 sides is fine.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding.  However, I believe "every player has two other players as his enemy" is pretty much a direct quote from Hitech from a previous thread years ago. 

If sides have equal numbers, is a 2-sided arena fine?
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2018, 07:08:00 PM »
3 sides dont have equal numbers right now, what makes you think 2 sides will be balanced?


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2018, 07:15:21 PM »
3 sides dont have equal numbers right now, what makes you think 2 sides will be balanced?


semp

If 3 sides aren't balanced now, what makes you think 2 sides would be worse?
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2018, 07:49:41 PM »
Let me back up a second.  We might be talking past each other. 

I think there may be two separate arguments here.

1.  Does 3-sides in itself promote numerical balancing?

and

2.  Does 3-sides promote strategic (not numeric) balancing in that the two lower populated sides would combine forces against the larger.

So I don't really see any basis for argument #1.  Demonstrably so by people posting screenshots of player numbers for years that get grossly out of balance.

Some of you seem to be tacitly admitting argument #1 is weak, but that argument #2 is 3-sides true super-power.

So that depends on the theory that the two smaller sides will put their differences on hold and combine forces in a resistance to the larger side.  I'm sure that happens at least sometimes.

But how often do you think the smaller sides just sees the other smaller side as weak and decides to take their bases before the larger side can?  How often do you think the average MA player would attack the perceived weaker side rather than the harder work of attacking the numerically larger side?

Before you answer that question, be sure you can do so with a straight face.  :rofl





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Offline SPKmes

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2018, 08:03:52 PM »
That can and does seem to happen at times (two sides attacking one)...I don't think it is a conscious thing however... having three sides balances things in so much that you still have to attack and take bases % of both sides before a map win can be recorded... so with the ebb and flow of numbers sometimes the maps seem to be at an all time stalemate ... you can have a team so close to a map win but as they attack the third side the second side takes away a base or 2 and brings the map win to a halt... with two sides.... if it is close to a win...many will jump on that side to get those precious perkies for the win and with superior numbers the win is inevitable and basically a white wash as not many will stay on a sinking ship
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 08:05:49 PM by SPKmes »

Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2018, 08:52:20 PM »
That can and does seem to happen at times (two sides attacking one)...I don't think it is a conscious thing however... having three sides balances things in so much that you still have to attack and take bases % of both sides before a map win can be recorded... so with the ebb and flow of numbers sometimes the maps seem to be at an all time stalemate ... you can have a team so close to a map win but as they attack the third side the second side takes away a base or 2 and brings the map win to a halt... with two sides.... if it is close to a win...many will jump on that side to get those precious perkies for the win and with superior numbers the win is inevitable and basically a white wash as not many will stay on a sinking ship


LoL.  I hadn't thought of switching sides at the last to get perks. How does that work now?  Can players on 3-sides switch at the last (assuming they haven't switched lately) and get the perks while only suffering the ENY for a short time?

I don't know how perks work.  I never bothered paying attention.  You would think perks awarded would be modified by some factor accounting for how long they had been on that team helping them win.  you would think that someone joining 15 minutes before the win wouldn't get any.  Is that how it works?
 

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Offline RODBUSTR

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2018, 09:52:54 PM »
   15O players  playing a 2 sided game. 75 players on each team. The odds are 1 to 1. You have a potential of 75 targets.  150 players on playing a 3 sides game with 50 players each odds are 2 to 1. and you have the potential to engage 100 targets.  To me the 3 sided makes more sense for less people playing.

Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2018, 09:59:38 PM »
   15O players  playing a 2 sided game. 75 players on each team. The odds are 1 to 1. You have a potential of 75 targets.  150 players on playing a 3 sides game with 50 players each odds are 2 to 1. and you have the potential to engage 100 targets.  To me the 3 sided makes more sense for less people playing.

Except those 100 are split across two fronts.  Since you can't be in two places at one time, you are only facing 50 of them at one time.  As opposed to 75 in 2-sided.

But I guess they are only putting half their force of that front, like yours, so its 25 vs 25 on that front, which is no better than 75 vs 75, but spread across a proportionally longer front resulting in lower player density.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 10:13:10 PM by CptTrips »
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Offline Mister Fork

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Re: 2-Sided vs 3-Sided Arena Design
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2018, 10:12:37 PM »
   15O players  playing a 2 sided game. 75 players on each team. The odds are 1 to 1. You have a potential of 75 targets.  150 players on playing a 3 sides game with 50 players each odds are 2 to 1. and you have the potential to engage 100 targets.  To me the 3 sided makes more sense for less people playing.
This. 

And that is exactly how Hitech explains his reasoning for the 3 side. 2 sides is a non-starter for the main arena because of it.
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