More MAX information

[Maverick]

Interesting article here regarding the pilots actions.  https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/march/20/congressman-concerned-about-foreign-pilot-training?utm_source=Editorial+737+Sam+Graves&utm_medium=Faebook&fbclid=IwAR2qr5j9rDjL4hBioody6meCKzxSIATBs166TUq8Zx68OGbz2-y5CX4zwqc

[Busher]

Interesting article here regarding the pilots actions.  https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/march/20/congressman-concerned-about-foreign-pilot-training?utm_source=Editorial+737+Sam+Graves&utm_medium=Faebook&fbclid=IwAR2qr5j9rDjL4hBioody6meCKzxSIATBs166TUq8Zx68OGbz2-y5CX4zwqc

Truly an excellent article but its a shame it appeared in AOPA instead of the New York Times. And the key words in the article as follows

"The NTSB has participated in the investigations, though an agency spokesman told The New York Times March 17 that any information gleaned by investigators could be made public only by Ethiopian officials. Boeing took the same position, citing longstanding protocol."

support the position that the real truth will never appear in an Official Document.

[Toad]

Interesting article. It seems Graves comes to the same mantra as many of us have: Fly The Jet.

I also got a very interesting E-mail from a friend with an article addressing this. It had a bit of info of which I was not aware:

"What they DON'T know is that the MCAS system can be enabled or disabled per plane, and remotely on a real time basis via uplink."

Trying to verify the source and some of the other claims. If I can, I'll post it.

Maybe Eagl knows if MCAS can be remotely enabled/disabled.

I guess most of us heard the proposed Boeing solution to the current grounding? One of the news programs tonight said they were going to set it up like a JAA Gulfstream 550 IE: both AOA sensors have to sense the limit before MCAS will activate and it will activate only ONCE, not repeatedly. Can't find a link on the net as yet, probably up tomorrow. Unless the MSM pretty face anchor had it wrong; always a possibility.

Well..that's a change to a different problem. Now, if  they make that change and you have one busted AOA and one good one if you approach a stall MCAS simply will not activate.

It's still not going to be idiot proof. Nothing ever is.

Somewhere out there is the guy that will stall it with the one failed AOA and mix the aluminum with the dirt. What shall we blame then?

[Shuffler]

In each case they will require someone in the cockpit that can fly the plane. So they will still have the same problem.

[Toad]

Just saw this from AOPA's safety guy; former Thunderbird lead. Like Sully though...what does he know about aviation? AmIRight?

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/march/21/aopa-safety-expert-weighs-in-on-boeing-crisis

[Mister Fork]

Article says it all Toad. The two newbs in the Ethiopian cockpit probably used the yoke cutoff instead of the proper console cutoff switches. In other words, a lack of proper pilot training and experience inhow to deal with emergencies. Both airlines also happened to be in two less developed nations.

Where in North America, pilot experience + emergency procedures training trumped the thousands of flights already with the MAX8. Which is troubling for me in that airlines will use cheap younger pilots in airplanes they really have no business or enough experience to fly.

[save]

I read in another forum, US and European pilots normally fly their 737 (regardless of  model) manually to 10k feet, whereas this procedure is not so common elsewhere.

2 incidents that might be, or nor might be referred to similar problems that have been reported in US, but at 10k you can work out and fix problems, a luxury you don't have if things go wrong when you are low on autopilot, and inadequate training does not help.

the Indonesian pilots did not know anything about the problems, in fact a 3rd pilot from another airline in the previous flight before the accident flew with them in cockpit,and told them how to fix the  problem they experienced.

Apparently they did not pass the information to the next set of pilots, something I think is almost criminal.

[save]

I read in another forum, US and European pilots normally fly their 737 (regardless of  model) manually to 10k feet, whereas this procedure is not so common elsewhere.

2 incidents that might be, or nor might be referred to similar problems that have been reported in US, but at 10k you can work out and fix problems, a luxury you don't have if things go wrong when you are low on autopilot, and inadequate training does not help.

the Indonesian pilots did not know anything about the problems, in fact a 3rd pilot from another airline in the previous flight before the accident flew with the crew in cockpit,and told them how to fix the same problem.

Apparently they did not pass that information to the next set of pilots, something I think is almost criminal.

[Busher]

I read in another forum, US and European pilots normally fly their 737 (regardless of  model) manually to 10k feet, whereas this procedure is not so common elsewhere.

2 incidents that might be, or nor might be referred to similar problems that have been reported in US, but at 10k you can work out and fix problems, a luxury you don't have if things go wrong when you are low on autopilot, and inadequate training does not help.

the Indonesian pilots did not know anything about the problems, in fact a 3rd pilot from another airline in the previous flight before the accident flew with them in cockpit,and told them how to fix the  problem they experienced.

Apparently they did not pass the information to the next set of pilots, something I think is almost criminal.

I am not so sure that all US pilots hand fly the airplane up to 10K. As I previously mentioned, most airplane manufacturers and Chief Pilots encourage the use of automation as soon as possible.

What is shocking is that at least one of these 737s apparently had demonstrated some abnormal behaviour on a previous flight. North American Rules would dictate a logbook entry (a snag) that would have to be rectified and signed off by a licensed AME prior to the next flight. Passing the information to the next crew is not always possible but making a logbook entry, advising dispatch or maintenance control, grounds the airplane until that rectification (or deferral) and signature appear in the logbook. Those are western rules. What goes on in the rest of the world is anyone's guess.

[Puma44]

I read in another forum, US and European pilots normally fly their 737 (regardless of  model) manually to 10k feet, whereas this procedure is not so common elsewhere.

This statement more than likely comes from someone who has never been an airline pilot and flown the 737, because it’s not the case.  Use of the autopilot and automation is an effective tool in reducing pilot fatigue during those long days that often occur three or four in a row.  Hand fly to 10,000 feet?  Yeah, occasionally, but not “normally”. 

[Toad]

I guess I was one of those weirdos that hand flew a lot. Not every single flight but more often than not on climb out. Fairly often on descent out of 10k too.

Good way to maintain proficiency IMO.

[Busher]

I guess I was one of those weirdos that hand flew a lot. Not every single flight but more often than not on climb out. Fairly often on descent out of 10k too.

Good way to maintain proficiency IMO.

I so agree.. I did too. As the senior First Officer's got promoted to Captain and the newer FO's joined the team, I laughed quietly at their very regular but polite suggestions that they were ready to engage the autopilot for me.

[Vraciu]

I guess I was one of those weirdos that hand flew a lot. Not every single flight but more often than not on climb out. Fairly often on descent out of 10k too.

Good way to maintain proficiency IMO.

I so agree.. I did too. As the senior First Officer's got promoted to Captain and the newer FO's joined the team, I laughed quietly at their very regular but polite suggestions that they were ready to engage the autopilot for me.

I do enough visual approaches into small airports that I never needed to hand fly much below ten.   I get plenty of practice.   

I guess the 121 Major world is different than Charter or Regional 121 in that regard due to the destinations...

[pembquist]

So I am sure you have all heard the one about the modern cockpit with the crew requirement of one pilot and a German Shepherd. The dog is there to bite the pilot if he touches anything.

I think pretty much the design of the airplane is headed in the direction of having a meat robot on board just so you have a scapegoat when the automation screws up.

It is sort of like an abusive parent: "Hand fly? What are you thinking Rogers!? We categorically only hand fly when absolutely necessary!" followed by "You incompetent idiot! Even a child knows Pitch Plus Power equals Performance. I don't care if the MFD is triggering brain seizures, and the autopilot is has decided it doesn't want to live anymore, why do you think we pay you so much?"

[100Coogn]

So I am sure you have all heard the one about the modern cockpit with the crew requirement of one pilot and a German Shepherd. The dog is there to bite the pilot if he touches anything.

I think pretty much the design of the airplane is headed in the direction of having a meat robot on board just so you have a scapegoat when the automation screws up.

It is sort of like an abusive parent: "Hand fly? What are you thinking Rogers!? We categorically only hand fly when absolutely necessary!" followed by "You incompetent idiot! Even a child knows Pitch Plus Power equals Performance. I don't care if the MFD is triggering brain seizures, and the autopilot is has decided it doesn't want to live anymore, why do you think we pay you so much?"

Wait until the 'Fully Autonomous Vehicles' get here for the general public, then you'll really see something.   

Coogan