Author Topic: Computer help..moving forward  (Read 10813 times)

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2019, 04:18:55 PM »
Another thing is the RAM you've chosen. Why take the slow 2133 when you can get much faster for about the same price?

Current default SPD for DDR4 is 2133 (1066), so even if you use higher rated DDR4, it will still run at 2133 unless you overclock memory, either manually or via embedded XMP profiles (if your motherboard allows it).

If you overclock your memory and with so many different CPU/Memory/Motherboard combinations, you need to thoroughly test it and see if it runs stable.

Now, Intel CPUs these days come with IMC (as do AMD) and running RAM at higher frequency requires rising the voltage for VCC-SA and VCC-IO which can exceed Intel safe VCC SA/IO voltages. That too can lead to unstable system, or in worse case, kill IMC (integrated memory controller).

Also, in real life usage, there is no significant performance gain if you run memory at clocks higher than default 2133 unless you're using integrated GPU which uses RAM instead of dedicated VRAM.

As in case of G.Skill - Ripjaws V 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3600 vs Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-2133,
if you're not going to overclock RAM, Corsair will be faster at default 2133 simply because of lower CAS (15 vs 19).




Online Bizman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9605
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2019, 08:55:53 AM »
2bighorn, if I've understood correctly what I've read, RAM speed isn't solely about latency. I've seen several ways to calculate a comparable digit but since I can't remember any of them I googled and this is what I found: https://notkyon.moe/ram-latency.htm. According to that there's a significant difference with 3600/19 and 2133/15, 10.56 vs. 14.06 ns.

I won't argue about the default SPD since my knowledge about it is weak. You're also right in saying that the speed of RAM doesn't matter much.

What I do know for sure is that underclocking RAM allows for lowering the CAS latency so the higher speed RAM may be faster even at 2133.
Quote from: BaldEagl, applies to myself, too
I've got an older system by today's standards that still runs the game well by my standards.

Kotisivuni

Offline fudgums

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2019, 10:41:09 AM »
With some consulting, here's what I am at right now.

PCPartPicker part list: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/JPqQ4q
Price breakdown by merchant: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/JPqQ4q/by_merchant/

CPU: AMD - Ryzen 5 2600X 3.6 GHz 6-Core Processor  ($189.89 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: ASRock - B450 Steel Legend ATX AM4 Motherboard  ($109.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: GeIL - EVO SPEAR 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory
Storage: Intel - 660p Series 512 GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive  ($65.89 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: MSI - GeForce GTX 1660 6 GB VENTUS XS OC Video Card  ($219.99 @ Newegg)
Case: NZXT - H500 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case  ($69.99 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: Cooler Master - MWE Gold 750 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply  ($64.99 @ B&H)
Total: $720.74
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-04-13 11:36 EDT-0400

Should I get a hard drive or is the SSD fine?

PS.

Looking to sell my old PC too, if I remove the old hard drive, there won't be any trace of what was on it like personal information.
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27

Offline 100Coogn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3925
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2019, 10:43:59 AM »
With some consulting, here's what I am at right now.

PCPartPicker part list: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/JPqQ4q
Price breakdown by merchant: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/JPqQ4q/by_merchant/

CPU: AMD - Ryzen 5 2600X 3.6 GHz 6-Core Processor  ($189.89 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: ASRock - B450 Steel Legend ATX AM4 Motherboard  ($109.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: GeIL - EVO SPEAR 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory
Storage: Intel - 660p Series 512 GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive  ($65.89 @ OutletPC)
Video Card: MSI - GeForce GTX 1660 6 GB VENTUS XS OC Video Card  ($219.99 @ Newegg)
Case: NZXT - H500 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case  ($69.99 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: Cooler Master - MWE Gold 750 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply  ($64.99 @ B&H)
Total: $720.74
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-04-13 11:36 EDT-0400

Should I get a hard drive or is the SSD fine?

PS.

Looking to sell my old PC too, if I remove the old hard drive, there won't be any trace of what was on it like personal information.

I would get a small SSD for your OS only and HDD for any games.

Coogan
Quote
From Wiley: If you're hitting them after they drop, that's not defense, that is revenge.
Game Id's:
AHIII: Coogan
RDR2: Coogan_Bear
MSFS-2020: Coogan Bear

Online Bizman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9605
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2019, 11:33:18 AM »
Don't skimp on the power supply! It's the most crucial part of your system and if it fails it can break every other component in the worst case. I didn't read much at https://www.overclockers.com/cooler-master-mwe-gold-750-power-supply-review/ to find out that your choice looks like a firecracker!
The 1660 doesn't need much power so much less than 750 W is required (note that too much extra power can cause issues) so in that price and feature category this looks like the best choice: https://pcpartpicker.com/product/bkp323/seasonic-focus-plus-gold-550w-80-gold-certified-fully-modular-atx-power-supply-ssr-550fx.

And yes, if you take the HDD out there's no way to find out what you have done with your old PC. Also, if the HDD is in good condition you can use it in your new build for AH and other games that work better on a HDD than an SSD. The Intel 512 GB SSD is so cheap that I can't justify getting a smaller one to save $20 or so. But as Coogan said, a HDD is good for (many) games.

Other than the power supply it looks like a serious cost effective gamer.
Quote from: BaldEagl, applies to myself, too
I've got an older system by today's standards that still runs the game well by my standards.

Kotisivuni

Offline 100Coogn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3925
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2019, 11:43:52 AM »
Don't skimp on the power supply! It's the most crucial part of your system and if it fails it can break every other component in the worst case. I didn't read much at https://www.overclockers.com/cooler-master-mwe-gold-750-power-supply-review/ to find out that your choice looks like a firecracker!
The 1660 doesn't need much power so much less than 750 W is required (note that too much extra power can cause issues) so in that price and feature category this looks like the best choice: https://pcpartpicker.com/product/bkp323/seasonic-focus-plus-gold-550w-80-gold-certified-fully-modular-atx-power-supply-ssr-550fx.

And yes, if you take the HDD out there's no way to find out what you have done with your old PC. Also, if the HDD is in good condition you can use it in your new build for AH and other games that work better on a HDD than an SSD. The Intel 512 GB SSD is so cheap that I can't justify getting a smaller one to save $20 or so. But as Coogan said, a HDD is good for (many) games.

Other than the power supply it looks like a serious cost effective gamer.

I should have stated 'many' games instead of 'any'.  Some games do perform better on a SSD.

Coogan
Quote
From Wiley: If you're hitting them after they drop, that's not defense, that is revenge.
Game Id's:
AHIII: Coogan
RDR2: Coogan_Bear
MSFS-2020: Coogan Bear

Offline fudgums

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2019, 01:42:16 PM »
Next to do would be:

1. Find a reliable power supply that wouldn't overpower the system.
2. Add a cheap but solid HDD(The one in my old build is dead) and keep the 512 GB SSD that I already have on the parts list.


Also, the monitor I have with my old build is a AOC E2250Swdn. Seems dated and the picture seems alright, the prices also seem a lot more expensive now than when I bought it years ago. Good idea to just keep it and roll or sell it and get a different one that's more suited for this build.

Many thanks fellas. 
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27

Online Bizman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9605
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2019, 01:58:34 PM »
The monitor you have is good enough unless you want a larger one. After all it's a full HD 1080p which is the current mainstream.

For the Power supply, the Seasonic I recommended is both inexpensive and of good quality, and it has enough power for some upgrades as well.
Quote from: BaldEagl, applies to myself, too
I've got an older system by today's standards that still runs the game well by my standards.

Kotisivuni

Offline 2bighorn

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2829
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2019, 03:19:12 PM »
2bighorn, if I've understood correctly what I've read, RAM speed isn't solely about latency. I've seen several ways to calculate a comparable digit but since I can't remember any of them I googled and this is what I found: https://notkyon.moe/ram-latency.htm. According to that there's a significant difference with 3600/19 and 2133/15, 10.56 vs. 14.06 ns.

I won't argue about the default SPD since my knowledge about it is weak. You're also right in saying that the speed of RAM doesn't matter much.

What I do know for sure is that underclocking RAM allows for lowering the CAS latency so the higher speed RAM may be faster even at 2133.

Bizman, what I was trying to say is that if you buy higher rated memory and just install it into your motherboard, it will run at JEDEC specified SPD profile which is currently at 2133.

If you want higher speed out of your memory, you have to explicitly set it in your UEFI/BIOS, either manually (timings and voltages) or with embedded XMP profiles.

When you do that, integrated memory controller (resides within your CPU package) will run at higher command rate as well (in this case 1800 MHz vs stock 1066 MHz), which means motherboard has to deliver higher voltages to VCC-SA (1.05V default) and VCC-IO (0.95V default) and shouldn't exceed safe voltages for that particular CPU as specified by Intel, which, in case of Coffee Lake is 1.25V (VCC-SA) and 1.20V (VCC-IO) respectively (VCore gets increase too since ratio should remain similar, but that's another story)

Since each motherboard/CPU combo differs it's impossible to test every combination, hence memory manufactures specify on which motherboards XMP profiles were tested on. If you use any other combination, you have to test it yourself and see at which command rate, timings and voltages you get stable results without exceeding safe voltages. And even if you are within limit but close at, you will most likely shorten the life of IMC considerably.

So, what are the benefits of running memory at higher command rate?
Increased memory bandwidth which looks good in some benchmarks but you don't really need it.
Slightly lower latency which is mostly negated by how internal memory caching works.
Better balanced system if you are significantly overclocking your CPU and GPU (mostly applies to extreme overclockers).
Slightly higher frame rate if you're using internal GPU (bellow 10% in average at 3600, and the reason why Intel likes to advertise XMP).
Higher speed rated memory has usually better silicon (product binning) but doesn't apply to all brands.

Negatives:
Higher $$
XMP does not guarantee stability unless you're using same components as memory manufacturer was using for testing, and even if you do, silicon is not silicon in many cases.
Almost no performance gain in real life usage. Gaming (with discrete GPU) performance increase is nearly non-existent. Maybe 1, 2 FPS, rarely more than that, most of the time less than a single frame.
Overclocking reduces the life of components.

If you really need to increase performance without shelling out extra $$, go for CPU and GPU overclocking. Performance gain will actually be measurable, and in most cases it's much safer because you'll probably hit thermal limits before voltage limits.
Memory overclocking is exactly the opposite. No real gain for a lot more $$.

Online Bizman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9605
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2019, 03:20:08 AM »
Thanks for the explanation  :salute.

Quote from: BaldEagl, applies to myself, too
I've got an older system by today's standards that still runs the game well by my standards.

Kotisivuni

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27070
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2019, 10:13:57 AM »
I have a 1 TB SSD. I run Win 10 Pro along with Autocad Inventor, Gibbscam, Trump TruTops Inch. Runs nicely with these programs.
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline Denniss

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 607
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2019, 01:14:15 PM »
Storage: Intel - 660p Series 512 GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive  ($65.89 @ OutletPC)
Actually a bad choice - although advertize with great big numbers for transfer speed this will drop down significantly after a short time. this is caused by the slow QLC Flash it uses, the very small DRAM cache + the more it's filled the smaller its dynamic cache.
Good quality standard SATA SSDs are often better than the Intel 660p, such as MX500, 860 Evo, WD Blue 3D/Sandisk Ultra 3D + their prices dropped a lot in the recent months so you may now get a 1TB SSD for the money you paid for a 500GB SSD one year ago.

Offline fudgums

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2019, 02:01:50 PM »
Could I just get a 500 WD SSD and then find a 1TB HDD?
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27

Offline Spikes

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15721
    • Twitch: Twitch Feed
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2019, 02:11:47 PM »
Yes. Don't mind the above, the majority of SSDs will be fine and you won't notice major changes over time.
i7-12700k | Gigabyte Z690 GAMING X | 64GB G.Skill DDR4 | EVGA 1080ti FTW3 | H150i Capellix

FlyKommando.com

Offline fudgums

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3929
Re: Computer help..moving forward
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2019, 02:44:57 PM »
PCPartPicker part list: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/mfCWpG
Price breakdown by merchant: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/mfCWpG/by_merchant/

CPU: AMD - Ryzen 5 2600X 3.6 GHz 6-Core Processor
Motherboard: ASRock - B450 Steel Legend ATX AM4 Motherboard
Memory: GeIL - EVO SPEAR 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory
Storage: Western Digital - Caviar Blue 1 TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive  ($49.99 @ Adorama)
Video Card: MSI - GeForce GTX 1660 6 GB VENTUS XS OC Video Card
Case: NZXT - H500 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case
Power Supply: SeaSonic - FOCUS Plus Gold 550 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply
Total: $49.99
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-04-14 15:44 EDT-0400

Do I need to get sound card or anything else for internet hook up?

Also, I just have the disk for Windows Office 7 I believe,  I don't believe I have the old windows 7 code. Would that work as well?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 02:49:10 PM by fudgums »
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27