Another 737 down

[Vraciu]

United’s pilots have said from the beginning they were aware of the MCAS System...

[Busher]

There is a consistent suggestion being made in this thread that when "big computer" burps, all hope is lost, the airplane and its contents are doomed.
At least with Boeing (I cannot comment on airbus technology - I never trained on one), little has changed in the fundamentals of the flying of the airplane since the 707 first flew in 1957. In the early days (including mine back to the early '70's) of flying jet transports, pilots had to be able to fly - your career depended upon it - failure to demonstrate satisfactory skills meant a career change. Autopilots existed then but they were sloppy, the could hold a heading and an altitude with some precision and they could fly and instrument approach but the pilots had to control power (autothrottles were in the future). Frankly, it was easier and more fun just to fly the approach manually. Unlike today's jets, the function of the autopilot was not required for dispatch.
Computer operation of commercial jets was a logical extension of the technological age. They allowed with their precision, fuel savings, more exact navigation, landings when visibility is basically nil, etc. Its a personal opinion but I believe these advancements lead to an era where people but most dangerously, airline managements and regulatory authorities chose to forget what pilots are there for. Training and qualification standards eroded to a degree where one fatal accident caused the FAA to make dramatic changes. While North American airlines are finding pilot recruitment to be far more difficult under these  new rules, they will hopefully enhance aviation safety.
Similar training and qualification standards are not applied in the same way in the rest of the world; especially in what we like to call the "third world". You may recall the ban applied by the EU to Garuda Indonesian and other airlines beginning in what I recall to be 2010. They earned the ban due to an abhorrent safety record and over the next 7 to 8 years, they committed to internal changes that brought them back to the standards of a world class airline.
Until all airlines and regulatory bodies, commit to safety by putting pilots in control that are more than "meat in the seat", I suggest you review what airline your travel agent booked you on.

[DaveBB]

Have you watched the video of how long it takes the horizontal stab to change position?  It's well over a full minute to go to maximum deflection.  A software error killed these dudes, not lack of flying ability.  If all it took was switching off the auto-pilot,  hundreds of people would still be alive.

Actively ignoring Vraciu.

[FLS]

Two egregious pilot errors killed everybody on the aircraft. First they failed to reduce thrust which caused an overspeed problem with manual trimming. Then, after finally turning the MCAS off, they turned it back on, although it may have been too late to recover the dive by then, due to the failure to reduce thrust.

All they needed to do to save the plane was switch off the electric trim when the big trim wheels started spinning for no good reason.

[Busher]

Have you watched the video of how long it takes the horizontal stab to change position?  It's well over a full minute to go to maximum deflection.  A software error killed these dudes, not lack of flying ability.  If all it took was switching off the auto-pilot,  hundreds of people would still be alive.

Actively ignoring Vraciu.

Dave, I retired with a little over 33000 hours of flying time. I am well aware of how long it takes to move the stab to full deflection. They did not need anywhere near full deflection.
The autopilot will not engage or stay engaged when there is a speed, altitude, or angle of attack difference between Captain and First Officer. The autopilot disengages and the safety of the airplane relies upon experienced calm well trained pilots to sort out who's instruments are wrong (using the steam technology backup airspeed and altimeters). Then the pilot with that valid instruments hand flies the airplane to a safe landing.

It was in someone's best interest after these two tragedies, to question only the safety of the airplane rather than complete an unbiased and professional investigation of all possible causal factors. That accomplished nothing other than to create a bunch of opinions unsupported by evidence. In the Ethiopian preliminary report, I found at least 4 items that in our world would have lead to a far more in-depth investigation.

So, to close Dave, maybe you wouldn't mind sharing a summary of your jet transport experience. It might help support your conviction that Boeing builds unsafe airplanes with software errors.

[pembquist]

Hey V do you have a source for United's pilots saying they knew about MCAS, all I can find is a reference to an interview with Todd Insler referred to as the chairman for the United branch of ALPA basically saying that pilots didn't have to know, a sort of precap of what Boeings CEO said. I think there is room in the world for both Boeing's job with MCAS to have been pretty lousy and for the 2 737max crashes to be 99% down to inadequate crew training/experience. I do think the accidents do point out the inadequacy of the training/experience/safety culture at the airlines that had the accidents.

[Vraciu]

Have you watched the video of how long it takes the horizontal stab to change position?  It's well over a full minute to go to maximum deflection.  A software error killed these dudes, not lack of flying ability.  If all it took was switching off the auto-pilot,  hundreds of people would still be alive.

Actively ignoring reality.

FIFY.

Truth hurts, but you can’t run from it.   They killed themselves by their inability to fly and unwillingness to complete, along with the active decision to violate/ignore, the published emergency procedure for this condition—which is the same one used by most transport category jets.   (I posted but two examples of many.)

“Switching off the autopilot”???????   Wut? 

As for full nose down, they would never have gotten there if they had not reengaged the stab trim after shutting it off.   I repeat: They killed themselves. 

I don’t care if you ignore me.   You’ve discredited yourself many times in multiple threads on this issue alone and I’ve long ago stopped taking you even remotely seriously.    I  cannot make a blind man see, and thus you are not my audience when I refute your grossly uninformed opinions regarding commercial aviation in general and the 737 Max/MCAS in particular.

[Vraciu]

Hey V do you have a source for United's pilots saying they knew about MCAS, all I can find is a reference to an interview with Todd Insler referred to as the chairman for the United branch of ALPA basically saying that pilots didn't have to know, a sort of precap of what Boeings CEO said. I think there is room in the world for both Boeing's job with MCAS to have been pretty lousy and for the 2 737max crashes to be 99% down to inadequate crew training/experience. I do think the accidents do point out the inadequacy of the training/experience/safety culture at the airlines that had the accidents.

Yes, but I will have to find it again.   You might beat me to it via a search.  Standby. 

[Vraciu]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2018/11/16/united-pilots-say-they-were-already-trained-to-override-boeing-737max-automatic-stall-recovery/#3209a44a7d5e

[Vraciu]

I have also found a description of MCAS in a BOEING manual that predates both accidents.

Note HIGH SPEED PITCHUP CONDITIONS — OUTSIDE THE NORMAL ENVELOPE : The very thing those pilots caused by running around at takeoff thrust for an ungodly extended period.   Is this a contributing factor?   Sure sounds like it to me. 

Bottom line is, they had what they needed to save the jet.   They complicated matters because they did not reduce thrust. 

http://www.b737.org.uk/images/mcas-mtm.jpg

[Vraciu]

Two egregious pilot errors killed everybody on the aircraft. First they failed to reduce thrust which caused an overspeed problem with manual trimming. Then, after finally turning the MCAS off, they turned it back on, although it may have been too late to recover the dive by then, due to the failure to reduce thrust.

All they needed to do to save the plane was switch off the electric trim when the big trim wheels started spinning for no good reason.

Exactly this. 

[Vraciu]

Dave, I retired with a little over 33000 hours of flying time. I am well aware of how long it takes to move the stab to full deflection. They did not need anywhere near full deflection.
The autopilot will not engage or stay engaged when there is a speed, altitude, or angle of attack difference between Captain and First Officer. The autopilot disengages and the safety of the airplane relies upon experienced calm well trained pilots to sort out who's instruments are wrong (using the steam technology backup airspeed and altimeters). Then the pilot with that valid instruments hand flies the airplane to a safe landing.

It was in someone's best interest after these two tragedies, to question only the safety of the airplane rather than complete an unbiased and professional investigation of all possible causal factors. That accomplished nothing other than to create a bunch of opinions unsupported by evidence. In the Ethiopian preliminary report, I found at least 4 items that in our world would have lead to a far more in-depth investigation.

E’topia is trying to save its own rear end knowing that if the truth got out about their standards people would think twice, like I do, about boarding one of their jets.

So, to close Dave, maybe you wouldn't mind sharing a summary of your jet transport experience. It might help support your conviction that Boeing builds unsafe airplanes with software errors.

I’ll take a stab at it.  Zero.  Zilch.  Nada.

[Puma44]

Have you watched the video of how long it takes the horizontal stab to change position?  It's well over a full minute to go to maximum deflection.  A software error killed these dudes, not lack of flying ability.  If all it took was switching off the auto-pilot,  hundreds of people would still be alive.

Actively ignoring Vraciu.

Well, you are, simply, wrong.  These pilots killed themselves, pure and simple.  And, they took their passengers with them.   Their actions and lack of competency resulted in avoidable tragedy. 

[pembquist]

V that last sentence from the manual is pretty confusing. Is it saying that the column cutout doesn't stop MCAS commanded forward trim if the F/O is pulling while the Captains side does? Or is it saying the reverse? Or neither?

[ACE]

Jeez guys when someone disagrees with what you say y’all get all in a tizzy and immediately resort to name calling and trying to talk down to someone( really shows the maturity here).

Shuffler, nice write up on the AC theory. You have your filter in the wrong spot however.. it’ll work on both sides but you really want it on the liquid side as it’s better for flow and actually catching debris. It’s kind of funny how that relates to this thread. You see, in my world we put multiple sensors(or filters) where one could do the job. It’s called a fail safe and it keeps the unit alive and working. Obviously some engineer or higher power at Boeing called for less AOA sensors on the MAX.

In the end y’all are totally right in saying the pilots messed up. I’ve said that since more info came about. But to sit and say the plane is totally fine is down right wrong. They had a malfunction, Boeing probably new this would happen so they put a bandaid(a cutoff switch) to help the problem. That’s wrong you may not agree and that’s fine but the people that have died due to that exact issue would probably have something different to say about it. .