Author Topic: Yak3 Drag modelling  (Read 24419 times)

Offline FLS

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2019, 08:59:43 AM »
More like "I don't know if this is right, but it seems wrong in some cases."

How exactly is induced drag factored into the game's flight model? FLS says that induced drag is proportional to lift. By what proportion? Would it not also be affected by the change in airflow over the non lifting portions of the aircraft when turning?

unlike the OP, I do not feel the Yak-3 is actually broken. That real plane was a beast, as is ours.

If you think of induced drag as tilted lift you get a good idea of the force difference to parasitic drag. Gravity pulls us straight down but lift pulls us both up and back. As AOA increases the tilt of the lift, a greater proportion of lift goes to drag.

When you fly level you can yaw slightly to increase parasitic drag and look at how that affects your speed for comparison to how turning affects your speed


Offline bustr

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2019, 01:24:53 PM »
I spent part of the day translating Russian historic sites on the Yak3 yesterday. From the deck to 18,000ft it was a monster with a short range of 400 or so miles. So combat time was limited but, it dominated the German rides under 18,000ft it fought. The Luft never put out an order to not engage it, that is a WW2 legend, and no one can find any order to validate it. Air combat happens so fast, by the time you can verify if it is a Yak-1, Mig-3, La5 or Yak-3, you are in the engagement. The Yak-3 countered the 109's best attribute of climb on WEP with it's sudden popup climb ability.

Pilot feed back comparisons were the Yak-3 caught the 190 in one full circle and the 109E\F\G in two. While neither could climb away or dive away. Yak-3 had a nasty wing tip stall at slow speeds due to it's small narrow pointed wing. The plywood skin was easy to repair because rounds punched holes in the plywood wood\(metal or Bakelite) composite material.

In the MA it does exactly all that, so I would venture Hitech got his hands on the data being argued here becasue Yak-3M were being produced for the War Birds market since the 1990's.
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Offline bozon

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #62 on: May 26, 2019, 04:14:15 AM »
There are 2 areas where I think the AH flight model favors light planes with oversized engines. Since yak3 is the most extreme case in this group, the effects are most evident.

The 1st is induced drag. Yak3 can maintain a climbrate that is close to optimal while flying at its lowest controllable speed (100 mph). Yak3 don’t actually stall at 100 mph (no flaps) - they fall off to the side due to torque after full rudder cannot overcome it. The stall buzzer will burn your headphones, you’ll have only sky in your forward view, and the plane still rockets skywards at about 4000 fpm. Spit 16 is quite similar btw, if you try to hold it at max power and lowest speed.

Now, some of this effect makes sense. At fixed G=1 (sustained climb), induced drag is a function of plane’s mass. Thus, light planes have flatter total drag curves below the min. drag speed. However, being able to sustain 4000 fpm climb on the edge of stall and controllability sounds a bit extreme. Emphasis on “sounds” because I did not go through the whole calculation nor do I have the data to do so.

The 2nd issue about slow speeds in AH is controll authority. At near stall speeds, control inputs in most planes are quite effective and have little adverse effects. For example, flying with the stall buzzer on and applying sudden full ailerons deflection (without adding pitch) does not cause one wing stall. Ailerons too are effective all the way down to the stall. Controls near stall are supposed to be a major issue for high power light planes that require a lot of controls inputs to keep flying at near stall. Yak3 does indeed cannot fly slower than 100 mph due to losing rudder authority, but the ailerons are fully effective.
If indeed these effects are a bit relaxed in AH, the light high powerloaded planes like yak3 will enjoy it more.

There are a lot of IFs above, I know.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #63 on: May 26, 2019, 04:33:58 AM »
... Yak3 don’t actually stall at 100 mph (no flaps) - they fall off to the side due to torque after full rudder cannot overcome it. ...

Nonsense. And the rest is BS.

Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #64 on: May 26, 2019, 11:18:53 AM »
Besides the guns, it's no different than a La7, it actually makes up for the guns with it's size and strength. I put about 8 20mm in a Yak3 from a 190D and it just flies away with an oil leak... It gets 1000s of more kills than a Ki84 with a higher K/D with a eny rated 2 points lower than a P51B. A P51B gets 600 kills a month, the Yak gets about 4000 kills with a higher K/D. Tell me how it's rational that a spit16 is a 5 eny plane when the Yak3 does better and is an 18 eny plane? Imo, we were just fine with only having the Yak9 as the best Yak.
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Offline leonid

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #65 on: May 26, 2019, 12:25:06 PM »
I remember flying the Yak-3 in Warbirds back when Pyro and Co. were still there. It was an amazing aircraft with a very slippery airframe. You could snap roll that Yak-3 at low speed too, which made for some very cool maneuvers. Zoom until almost at apex, snap roll and exit pointing almost straight down. Add in the slow compression at speed and a dive in (not away) made for a very unorthodox escape. Anyone following often missed the roll and so couldn't track the sudden drop as they zoomed for a shot. Haven't played AH in a very long time but knowing the Yak-3 is in the inventory makes it tempting.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 12:29:36 PM by leonid »
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Offline Bushmills

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2019, 03:25:58 PM »
Nonsense. And the rest is BS.

 :rofl FLS have you actually flown the Yak3 since its been introduced?

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2019, 03:54:41 PM »
:rofl FLS have you actually flown the Yak3 since its been introduced?

Most likely, as well as having done most of the code work to get it in the game.   :devil

I think all the OP wants is for Hitech to check it out. Its not like Hitech has a spelling issue or "fat fingered" some code or another ever before. Accidents happen.

Offline FLS

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #68 on: May 26, 2019, 03:56:06 PM »
:rofl FLS have you actually flown the Yak3 since its been introduced?

Yes, but I hate left turning props because I automatically correct rudder for right turning props.   :joystick:

Nobody is more interested in AH flight model accuracy than Hitech, but that requires verifiable quantifiable data.

Offline FLS

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #69 on: May 26, 2019, 03:59:52 PM »
Most likely, as well as having done most of the code work to get it in the game.   :devil

I think all the OP wants is for Hitech to check it out. Its not like Hitech has a spelling issue or "fat fingered" some code or another ever before. Accidents happen.

Like a stopped clock is right twice a day you think Hitech maybe screwed it up but accidentally got the two parameters we can check correct.   :headscratch:

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #70 on: May 26, 2019, 04:02:54 PM »
Like a stopped clock is right twice a day you think Hitech maybe screwed it up but accidentally got the two parameters we can check correct.   :headscratch:

...and why do you think it is impossible for Hitech to have accidentally add/miss a keystroke that effect how the Yak retains "E"? ANYTHING is possible with code.

Offline FLS

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #71 on: May 26, 2019, 04:55:53 PM »
AFAIK retaining E is not a flight model parameter. 

So what specific Yak 3 performance does not match published data?

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #72 on: May 26, 2019, 05:23:33 PM »
AFAIK retaining E is not a flight model parameter. 

So what specific Yak 3 performance does not match published data?

LOL!!!! thats right, you wrote the code, not Hitech, my mistake.

Offline save

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2019, 07:11:19 PM »
Nonsense. And the rest is BS.

So how do you explain  the video Bozon did in another thread, flying at 100ish nose up at 4kfeet climb per minute ?
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Offline Bushmills

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Re: Yak3 Drag modelling
« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2019, 06:45:03 AM »
Yes, but I hate left turning props because I automatically correct rudder for right turning props.   :joystick:

Nobody is more interested in AH flight model accuracy than Hitech, but that requires verifiable quantifiable data.

Well it must have been in some other arena or another id, since it was introduced you haven't flown it once in the MA in fact you have only 2 interactions with it since 2013.

LOL!!!! thats right, you wrote the code, not Hitech, my mistake.

I'll bet it is a lot more complicated than a couple of parametres, definitely way over our heads, and more than likely flight modelling god FLS would be out of his depth as well.

We mere mortals can only list our experiences in game against a plane  :old: