Author Topic: Thumping Noise In 109  (Read 4777 times)

Offline Puma44

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Re: Thumping Noise In 109
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2019, 07:57:45 PM »
Puma,

  the leading edge slats were programed?  Plz tell me more as I assumed they worked like the 109's did,just some roller bearing and air flow. On the rino were they powered???

  Inquiring minds...... :x



    :salute

More, for your reading pleasure, some excerpts out of the F-4E-1:

“The slats and flaps system is an integrated system that provides an automatic slat configuration for inflight maneuvering.....”

“The flaps and slats are electrically selected and hydraulically actuated.....”

“With the slats flaps switch in NORM, the maneuvering slats operate automatically as a function of AOA.  As the AOA is increased to approximately 11.5 units, the slats will extend and remain extended until AOA is reduced to approximately 10.5 units.”

When doing my checkout in the E model, we worked AOA in different scenarios and could feel the slats cycle out and the jet “dig in” with about an extra third of a G, as I remember.  One of the very useful things in the slatted E, was the ability to use aileron in addition to the rudder to do maneuvering turns.   In the hard wing D model I flew at the school house, ONLY rudder was used for maneuvering turns.  If any aileron was applied, the D would quickly depart controlled flight into “Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride”.  The E was a blast to fly in air to air maneuvering into the phone booth because it could be taken to the edge of the envelope after getting some proficiency in the jet.

Hope this answered your inquiring mind.  :salute



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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Thumping Noise In 109
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2019, 08:14:47 PM »
Puma  regarding the below quoted line

Quote
The flaps and slats are electrically selected and hydraulically actuated

Are you referring to the leading edge flaps?
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Puma44

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Re: Thumping Noise In 109
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2019, 09:10:04 PM »
Puma  regarding the below quoted line

Are you referring to the leading edge flaps?

The leading edge slats on the E model.



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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Thumping Noise In 109
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2019, 09:31:20 PM »
The leading edge slats on the E model.

Rgr, I couldn't remember if the E version included the leading edge flaps, along with the leading edge slats or not

"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Thumping Noise In 109
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2019, 10:42:42 PM »
One of the very useful things in the slatted E, was the ability to use aileron in addition to the rudder to do maneuvering turns.   In the hard wing D model I flew at the school house, ONLY rudder was used for maneuvering turns.  If any aileron was applied, the D would quickly depart controlled flight into “Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride”.  The E was a blast to fly in air to air maneuvering into the phone booth because it could be taken to the edge of the envelope after getting some proficiency in the jet.


OK, once again permit me to be the dunce in the room.  In a normal aeroplane, a turn is accomplished with an aileron-induced bank, with rudder counteracting adverse yaw, while applying back pressure to, basically, pull yourself around the circle.  Now you say that you turned enormous heavy brick-like Phantoms, aileron-free, simply by stomping on the rudder...?  Wouldn't that sort of hurt, if you were going real fast?  Not to mention putting the craft some distance outside the intended turn radius, and perhaps a bit slower?

- oldman (possessing a bewildered yet inquiring mind)

Offline Puma44

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Re: Thumping Noise In 109
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2019, 11:41:17 PM »

OK, once again permit me to be the dunce in the room.  In a normal aeroplane, a turn is accomplished with an aileron-induced bank, with rudder counteracting adverse yaw, while applying back pressure to, basically, pull yourself around the circle.  Now you say that you turned enormous heavy brick-like Phantoms, aileron-free, simply by stomping on the rudder...?  Wouldn't that sort of hurt, if you were going real fast?  Not to mention putting the craft some distance outside the intended turn radius, and perhaps a bit slower?

- oldman (possessing a bewildered yet inquiring mind)

Well, you are not a dunce.  Good question that I didn’t fully explain the statement originally.  The issue is at high AOA maneuvering.  That’s where in the hard wing Phantoms, the rolling maneuvers had to be down with the rudder.  In the E, use it all because of the advantage of leading edge slats.



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Offline Chalenge

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Offline FLS

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Re: Thumping Noise In 109
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2019, 08:31:01 AM »
Well, you are not a dunce.  Good question that I didn’t fully explain the statement originally.  The issue is at high AOA maneuvering.  That’s where in the hard wing Phantoms, the rolling maneuvers had to be down with the rudder.  In the E, use it all because of the advantage of leading edge slats.

This is also true in Aces High. In a max AOA fight like a slow flat scissors using the rudder will turn you but using aileron will stall one wing.

Offline Puma44

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Re: Thumping Noise In 109
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2019, 09:56:14 AM »
This is also true in Aces High. In a max AOA fight like a slow flat scissors using the rudder will turn you but using aileron will stall one wing.

Good point.  The F-4 also utilized an aileron and spoiler combination to initiate a bank.  For instance, when the stick was moved left to bank left, the left wing spoiler would extend to dump lift, drop the left wing and the right wing aileron would move down and bring the wing up.  Of course, the amount of movement for each depended on the amount of stick deflection. 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 10:05:32 AM by Puma44 »



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Offline morfiend

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Re: Thumping Noise In 109
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2019, 12:48:55 PM »
Thx Puma! :aok :aok

  I;m not that informed on jets,sure I can tell one from another but the inner workings of the cockpit are another thing altogether.

  I was watching some vids on navy F4's and saw where a pilot put it into toad's ride on purpose,it was sort of like in topgun,you know,I'm gonna hit the brakes and he'll fly right by. The mig did exactly that.... :devil  Was a dogfights episode.



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Offline Puma44

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Re: Thumping Noise In 109
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2019, 03:24:59 PM »
Any time my friend! 👍



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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Thumping Noise In 109
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2019, 04:25:48 PM »
Thx Puma! :aok :aok

  I;m not that informed on jets,sure I can tell one from another but the inner workings of the cockpit are another thing altogether.

  I was watching some vids on navy F4's and saw where a pilot put it into toad's ride on purpose,it was sort of like in topgun,you know,I'm gonna hit the brakes and he'll fly right by. The mig did exactly that.... :devil  Was a dogfights episode.



    :salute

John Boyd was famous for that.  "Flat-plating the bird."   An F-105 driver in Vietnam saved his own arse doing that with a MiG-21 on his six having learned it at the Fighter Weapons School (where Boyd had made it famous in the F-100).   I don't know if it was Ed Rasimus that this is in reference to, but he also wrote about doing the same thing in "When Thunder Rolled" about his Thud tour.

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Offline morfiend

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Re: Thumping Noise In 109
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2019, 05:08:49 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfQVehFjvaI


  This is what I was talking about, It starts around the 30 min mark.





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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Thumping Noise In 109
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2019, 05:28:34 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfQVehFjvaI


  This is what I was talking about, It starts around the 30 min mark.





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Skyyr taught me that and I've used it in the MA a few times.  Works awesome.  I completely forgot about it.  HA HA.   :cheers:
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Offline Vraciu

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