Author Topic: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features  (Read 2223 times)

Offline Vraciu

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2019, 12:26:23 PM »
See rule #4
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 02:28:47 PM by hitech »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2019, 12:28:53 PM »
OK, I thought you talked about making my engine over-heat and seize if I didn't twiddle radiator flaps right.  That would be really annoying.  If it doesn't inconvenience me or give you a noticeable advantage, then fine. 

If you make the difference minor enough that I couldn't tell one way or another flying against you.  If I can tell it is giving you a noticeable advantage, then that is the same as punishing those that don't want to be flight sim accountants.  So yeah, 1 or 2 ft/s if that floats your boat.

Now whether that is worth touching that much coad is another question.  Risk&effort vs reward.  I doubt adding radiator flaps would put another 100 players in to the arena.   


:salute

Bingo.   And for every player it adds you'll lose ten.  People already have a hard enough time with everything being equal.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2019, 12:29:29 PM »
War Thunder only has that in simulation mode, which seems to be used by a very small minority of the players.  In the other modes, engine control is generally done by the game, and it is more advantageous to use "mouse aim" to control the aircraft than a joystick.  It is also free to play.

Mike

Bingo.
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2019, 12:37:34 PM »

Kinda hard to convince them they're wrong and should like something else.


Yeah, well, didn't Targetware stroke itself about all it's complex engine management?  Did that help them?  where are they now?

If you added radiator flaps you would still not pull over many IL2 players.  Mainly because of graphics and because a huge percentage of them only want to play an offline standalone sim.  (No, I not saying there are zero IL2 multi-players.) 

If you really want to impress me, add a one-death-your-account-is-closed-forever feature.  Now THAT would be hardcore realism.   ;)

:salute

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Offline Wiley

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2019, 12:51:10 PM »
Yeah, well, didn't Targetware stroke itself about all it's complex engine management?  Did that help them?  where are they now?

If you added radiator flaps you would still not pull over many IL2 players.  Mainly because of graphics and because a huge percentage of them only want to play an offline standalone sim.  (No, I not saying there are zero IL2 multi-players.) 

If you really want to impress me, add a one-death-your-account-is-closed-forever feature.  Now THAT would be hardcore realism.   ;)

:salute

I'm telling you people.  Turning it into a dating sim idle game will rake in the money with minimal development time and save Aces High.

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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2019, 12:54:12 PM »
I'm telling you people.  Turning it into a dating sim idle game will rake in the money with minimal development time and save Aces High.

Wiley.


No, no no!  Turn it into a accounting flight sim Excel spreadsheet like Targetware and you don't even have to worry graphics updates!

Just mind that double entry.

;)


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Offline Saxman

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2019, 12:59:20 PM »
OK, I thought you talked about making my engine over-heat and seize if I didn't twiddle radiator flaps right.  That would be really annoying.  If it doesn't inconvenience me or give you a noticeable advantage, then fine. 

If you make the difference minor enough that I couldn't tell one way or another flying against you.  If I can tell it is giving you a noticeable advantage, then that is the same as punishing those that don't want to be flight sim accountants.  So yeah, 1 or 2 ft/s if that floats your boat.

Now whether that is worth touching that much coad is another question.  Risk&effort vs reward.  I doubt adding radiator flaps would put another 100 players in to the arena.   


:salute

This is the implementation I would use:

1) It would be an option like Stall Limiter and Engine Governor.
2) Turned off, things function more or less like normal. The game automatically manages cowl flaps, mixture, etc.
3) Turned on, the player now manages those functions based on the aircraft's capabilities (IE, Corsairs can set fuel to Auto Lean or Auto Rich, but have to manually adjust prop speed, cowl and oil cooler flaps, and change the supercharger speed. Whereas FW-190s don't have to worry about propeller pitch since it's all automatic). Obviously some difference would need to be determined between aircraft with automatic controls, and the game managing it for the player. And one possibility is that aircraft that actually have automatic controls would supersede the "EZ Engine" setting (so fly a 190, and your propeller is managed by the aircraft. Fly a Spitfire and the game's auto controls manage it). Perhaps similar to how combat trim is more general and unable to account for things like flaps than trimming manually; so "EZ Engine" sets everything in a "good enough" range, but the aircraft's automatic settings are more precise.
4) Manual settings (where available) allow squeezing a bit of extra performance out of the aircraft. Maybe 3-5mph if you shut your flaps, or a few extra FPM on your rate of climb by tweaking your propeller pitch, etc.
5) I propose adding engine overheats as part of the risk/reward to manual settings. Players with CEM disabled generally wouldn't need to worry about it (unless they do something silly like WEP from takeoff to landing). But with manual settings, pushing too much (IE prop speed too high, fuel too rich or lean, etc.) or for too long risks burning out the engine (the time, however, should be reasonable. Il-2 seriously overmodels engine overheats) It would be similar to how the Engine Governor already works in WWI: You can leave it on and never have to worry about your engine blowing up from over-revving. However when off you can take the risk for a bit extra performance at high speeds and in dives.

You shove off with your nuisance wishes.  (If you don't like feedback don't post on a DISCUSSION board.)

You're not discussing. You hit "Engine Management" and slammed on the brakes and summarily dismissed the entire post. I've seen plenty of people on this board ask for CEM in the past, so it ain't on you to declare what is or is not a "nuisance wish."

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You want an advantage because of self-induced difficulty.     That's grinding.



Flying over and over and over again in a low-ENY plane to rack up perk points is grinding. Spending hours wandering around killing Kobolds and Spiders even though you're ten levels above them for easy XP and Gold is grinding.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 01:01:56 PM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Vraciu

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2019, 01:30:47 PM »
And asking for extra-work nonsense to gain an advantage is grinding.   It's the same thing it's simply a matter of how you "earn" it.


No.   No.   And no.


And, yeah, it's a nuisance wish, because it's gonna annoy a lot of people should Hitech be foolish enough to try it.    We have way more crucial needs right now than this stuff--as in just about ANYTHING else.



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Offline Saxman

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2019, 02:00:31 PM »
And asking for extra-work nonsense to gain an advantage is grinding.   It's the same thing it's simply a matter of how you "earn" it.


No.   No.   And no.


And, yeah, it's a nuisance wish, because it's gonna annoy a lot of people should Hitech be foolish enough to try it.    We have way more crucial needs right now than this stuff--as in just about ANYTHING else.

No, it is NOT. Grinding is repetition of the same simple action over and over and over and over and over to achieve a minor result. "Kill a Kobold. Kill a Kobold. Kill a Kobold. Kill a Kobold. Yay, Level Up." THAT is grinding. "Horde on my Six! Throttle to WEP, cowl and oil cooler flaps closed for minimal drag, propeller pitch to full, dive the hell out of here...crap, is that smoke from the cowl? Just a few more seconds... whew, I lost them. Flaps open, prop at 80%, throttle back. Ok, engine temperature is back to normal." Is not.

Grinding is NOT "any extra bit of work to gain an advantage." The repetition is the operative part, NOT how much work you're actually doing. So if you don't want to do any work you may as well just spend all day vulching fields (which would ACTUALLY be grinding, because now you're repeating a simple action to achieve a minor result).

And there's also going to be plenty of people who ARE interested and DO want it, and will NOT be annoyed. You want to be annoyed? Then DON'T TURN IT ON.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Vraciu

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2019, 02:48:35 PM »
No, it is NOT. Grinding is repetition of the same simple action over and over and over and over and over to achieve a minor result. "Kill a Kobold. Kill a Kobold. Kill a Kobold. Kill a Kobold. Yay, Level Up." THAT is grinding. "Horde on my Six! Throttle to WEP, cowl and oil cooler flaps closed for minimal drag, propeller pitch to full, dive the hell out of here...crap, is that smoke from the cowl? Just a few more seconds... whew, I lost them. Flaps open, prop at 80%, throttle back. Ok, engine temperature is back to normal." Is not.

Grinding is NOT "any extra bit of work to gain an advantage." The repetition is the operative part, NOT how much work you're actually doing. So if you don't want to do any work you may as well just spend all day vulching fields (which would ACTUALLY be grinding, because now you're repeating a simple action to achieve a minor result).

And there's also going to be plenty of people who ARE interested and DO want it, and will NOT be annoyed. You want to be annoyed? Then DON'T TURN IT ON.

It's repetitive action to attain an advantage.   It's grinding. 

If you gain advantage by this kind of silly gimmick you'll lose players.   

So, make it optional and completely neutral.    That way all the wannabe super hero FPH's can get theirr fix without disrupting the balance we have now.    The previous posters have done an excellent job explaining the reasons not to implement this as you want it.

This game has more pressing needs than giving people extra performance via a gimmick.  "Plenty of people" will not like it, more than enough to offset those that do.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 02:55:45 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2019, 03:13:50 PM »
FFS, if you call THAT repetitive wtf do you call throttling your and down or raising and lowering flaps throughout an engagement?
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Spikes

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2019, 03:17:07 PM »
If the option were to be added I don't see an issue with it. If a player wants to have that realism in the MA, they can turn the auto-stuff off, as long as the 'auto' stuff is defaulted to 'on'.
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2019, 03:30:30 PM »
In a game of inches, even a "minor advantage" still creates a caste system.  If there's no difference in the performance between auto and manual, why not just have a box with some levers on it beside your keyboard and pretend you're manipulating those cowling flaps?

But we really shouldn't be stifling Saxman's creativity.  Come on people, we need to discuss if it's a good idea, or a really good idea.

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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2019, 09:34:04 PM »
FFS, if you call THAT repetitive wtf do you call throttling your and down or raising and lowering flaps throughout an engagement?

Normal operation.  I don't gain an advantage over and above what others get for it.    My flaps don't magically give me two extra knots of stall protection over the other guy because I have selected some dubious manual mode.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2019, 09:35:08 PM »
In a game of inches, even a "minor advantage" still creates a caste system.  If there's no difference in the performance between auto and manual, why not just have a box with some levers on it beside your keyboard and pretend you're manipulating those cowling flaps?

But we really shouldn't be stifling Saxman's creativity.  Come on people, we need to discuss if it's a good idea, or a really good idea.

Wiley.

It's a terrible idea if it gives an advantage over the current default.

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